EMBARGO: 7.30 p. m.
Monday 4 June 1973
INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL WILLESEE BY THE PRIME MINISTER,
MR E. G. WHITLAM, CANBERRA
MONDAY 4 JUNE 1973
WILLESEE: This would seem to be an interview which doesn't
require a great introduction. The Prime Minister, Mr Gough
Whitlam, is the first Labor Prime Minister in 23 years and he
has now been at it for six months. Mr Whitlam; Do you think
that the worst thing that has happened to you so far might
be the Victorian State elections?
PRIME MINISTER: No. That's only an episode.
WILLESEE: Have you had a worse episode in six months?
PhIME MINISTER: No. Of course I was disappointed at: how badly
we did our Party did in Victoria. But I think the clear
thing was this. That a good progressive Liberal can still do
well and keep the middle ground. We won it in Victoria six
months ago; Mr Hamer was able to keep it at the present time.
WILLESEE: Sir Henry Bolte said-, " Thank God for Gough Whitlam!"
PRIME MINISTER: But if Sir Henry Bolte had been there, there
would have been a very different result. Mr Hamer is different
from Sir Henry Bolte and the people of Victoria knew it.
WILLESEE: Do you think yoi~ lre wise to say to the people of
Victoria: Make this a test vote; show me what you think of
the Opposition's actions in the Senate.
PRIME MINISTER: No I wasn't. They took no notice of me.
WILLESEE: Are you sure they took no notice.
PRIME MINISTER: They took no notice.
WILLESEE: Do you ever think that you can do it that way, say
make this a test vote?
PRIME MINISTER: I thought
WILLESEE: If you had won you would have claimed a success,
wouldn't you?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, of course. I suppose this is always the
difficulty. If a Federal Leader is asked to take part in a
State Election, what is he to talk about? All the interests
I have in politics are Federal, not State. So I made a speech
and I put this in, Mr Hamer is a good politician; he didn't
pick up the dead cat. It got no publicity; it had no effect.
WILLESEE: As you have been the front runner in Australian
politics for six months, very clearly. You have been talked
about most. The political atmosphere has been one of discussion
about Gough Whitlam, and one State had an election, and you
didn't do very well.
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PRIME MINISTER: If you want to go on that basis we did very
well in the Brisbane City Council elections. We did very well
in the South Australian elections. I don't take the credit for
either. I am not going to take the blame for the Victorian.
The fact is that on all the issues of significance Mr Hamer
was not at odds with me. Mr Hamer and Mr Holding were putting
substantially the same program as I would put in the position
of either of them.
WILLESEE: What do you think about the Catholic Bishop coming in
and saying '-Don't vote Labor because of abortionP'.
PRIME MINISTER: Well let's be specific. it was one wicked old
man; he is contemptible. I will waste no time on him. He was
a liar and I am not going to enter into controversy with him
WILLESEE: What do you think oE the Church for allowing one of
its Bishops to interfere in politics in that manner?
PRXME MINISTER: I think that the Church would do well to be
tougher and to insist on the retiring age for some of its wicked
old men. But the Church has made terrific changes in the last
couple of decades and there are changes which some Bishops
don't like.
WILLESEE: Did you ask anybody in the Church to try and counteract
what that Bishop said?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no,
WILLESEE: Why not?
PRIME MINISTER: it is not my business; the Church can deal
with these things very well.
WILLESEE: Let's move from one State to the States. One
overriding problem that you appear to be having is one of State
rights, dismissal of the Privy Council, the last court of appeal
and also ownership of Australian minerals offshore. How was it
that you and Don Dunstan can differ so markedly over this?
PRIME MINISTER: There is a difference between all the States
on this issue and the Commonwealth has been ever since
John Gorton first brought it up. There is a difference these
days between the Liberals in the Federal Parliament as there
has been for the last three years. Now the whole point about
it is this. We can't as a nation a llow our offshore resources
to be dissipated in the way our onshore resources were. Look
what would happen if you had six States making different
arrangements as you had, say, Sir Charles Court and Mr BjelkePetersen
doing with onshore resources. We have to deal as a nation or
we fail and Mr Connor has shown how successfully we can deal as
a nation. Look at the deal he got from the Japanese mineral
importers this last week.
WILLESEE: Three of your Labor Premiers disagree with you.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Does that alarm you.
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PRIME MINISTER: No. They are wrong. They are playing the
role of Canute. There is no question that Australians don't
believe that British courts are better than the High Court
of Australia. Why should we still have appeals to the Privy
Council in England? Also I don't believe that Australians
believe the States can look after offshore resources better
than the Commonwealth.
WILLESEE: Would you agree that in most senses you and
Don Dunstan think in a very similar manner?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, we do. We always have; we have been
closely associated for twenty years.
WILLESEE: Then why do you differ so markedly on this one?
PRIME MINISTER: We don't discuss it, we just differ on it.
WILLESEE: Could it be that your respective positions influence
your thinking?
PRIME MINISTER: I suppose.
WILLESEE: Well could it be then that Gough Whitlam would like
more power?
PRIME MINISTER: On things like this I am certain that the
Australian Government, whether it was under Mr Gorton or under
Gough Whitlam, needs to carry this responsibility. I am quite
convinced of this and I believe that my predecessors as
Prime Minister would really have been of the same view.
WILLESEE: Do you think Don Dunstan would change his mind if
he were in charge in Canberra?
PRIME MINISTER: No, but he won't prevail on this issue. In
Canberra, yes he probably would.
WILLESEE: You say he won't prevail.
PRIME MINISTER: Of course not.
WILLESEE: In the Federal Conference?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course not.
WILLESEE: Your quite sure on that:?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. Do you really think that the
Federal Conference of the Labor Party would do anything to
down-grade the first Federal Government we have had in a
quarter of a century?
WILLESEE: Could I put that question to you? Do you think they
would? PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: The Labor Party has a rather nasty history of toppling
tall poppies from time to time,
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PRIME MINISTER: Yes, but not when they are carrying out party
policy. This was settled at our last Conference, and that they
will not be deterred by the obstruction of the Privy Council
or the offshore resources.
PRIME MINISTER: Don't mind me putting this in. The differences
of significance on this matter are within the Liberal Party.
The Labor Party in the Federal Parliament is absolutely united
on this. The Liberals have differed between the House of
Representatives and the Senate.
WILLESEE: I just suggested perhaps unfairly that you may be
motiviated in these actions for a desire for more power. You
have had power for six months now. Do you enjoy that?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, sure. Very much.
WILLESEE: How different does it feel to have power?
PRIME MINISTER: All the frustrations of twenty years preparation
in opposition are no longer there.
WILLESEE: Are there different frustrations now?
PRIME MINISTER: I suppose so, but they haven't yet emerged.
WILLESEE: What about Caucus, that body of all the Federal Labor
Parliamentarians who can override you and your Cabinet?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. They haven't. They are fully involved
in the whole process and they get the same satisfaction.
WILLESEE: What would you do if they did?
PRIME MINISTER: Well of course I would accept it. But is it
Slikely? It hasn't happened. Do not let us be hypothetical
about these things.
WILLESEE: Well politics is almost the art of hypothis isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: No. it is the art of the possible. And is
Caucus going to embarrass a successful, positive, Government?
They are proud of it. They are part of it.
WILLESEE: In personal terms, while we are talking about,
your attitude to power and so on, you still come under
some criticism for your personality, Strangely you win the
popularity polls that are taken by the survey people. The
last one I recall you were clearly ahead of Mr Snedden and
Mr Anthony in most factors except arrogance. They were rated
to be more humble than you.
PRIME MINISTER: I thought that we were all pretty close. I
suppose they have more to be humble about. Is that what you
expect me to say?
WILLESEE: I don't expect any answer. Does that concern you?
PRIME MINISTER: Not terribly. I expect, you know, it is
inevitable in a Parliamentary system where people are asked
questions and give answers and so on that whoever has the
numbers, whoever is the Prime Minister or the Premier will
appear or be called arrogant. It goes with the job.
WILLESEE: It is not a peculiarly personal weakness perhaps?
PRIME MINISTER: No. I can't tell. You ask me to be too
subjective.
WILLESEE: The other point, that is raised against you is
that you are sometimes
PRIME MINISTER: Is the Federal Conference tossing me? Are the
State Premiers tossing me, the Caucus tossing me, the
personality faults? What's next?
WILLESEE: We have twenty minutes to go. To be impetuous
appears to be a Whitlam trait? Is it?
PRIME MINISTER: I wouldn't think so. The things which I
do are usually the result of years of consideration. I mean
you have been talking about some of these matters of policy
on which there would be, say, a difference in the Party.
These are deep seated views of mine, you can go back for twenty
years...... WILLESEE: I don't think I can accept that fully, I am not
talking about policy
PRIME MINITSTER: There has been a very consistent or you might
say stubbon adherence to those principles.
WILLESEE: I think I am talking about Whitlam on his feet.
What about the outburst about President Nixon a couple of days
ago. PRIME MINISTER: No outburtt. No outburst.
WILLESEE: Really?
PRIME MINISTER: No. No outburst. You are going on the headlines.
WILLESEE: No, I am going on whht you said. I read it, I
interpret it as a criticism of both President Nixon and the
United States political system.
PRIME MINISTER: I believe Australia has a better political
system than the United States, Don't you?
WILLESEE: It doesn't matter.
PRIME MINISTER: No? Well I think it does matter, and I don't
believe that we gain anything by suggesting that the Australian
political system is inferior to the American political system.
America is a very great democracy but she has run into some
very bad shoals, because of deficiences in the syst%-em.
WILLESEE: You talked about the parlous position that President
Nixon finds himself in because of his personal behaviour.
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PRIME MINISTER: No. I respond to a smart question by my
predecessor saying that I am breaking-in in a Watergate fashion.
Now is the reference to Watergate meant to be insulting to
President Nixon or to me?
WILLESEE: But it doesn't matter. He is not the Prime Minister,
you are.
PRIME MINISTER: Mr Nixon wouldn't take it as flattering.
I didn't take it as flattering either. Watergate has been a
disaster. I didn't mention it, it was mentioned in a question
to me.
WILLESEE: You must accept that what you said could only harm
personal relations.
PRIME MINISTER: No, not at all. Where President Nixon has been
right I have been unstinting in my acknowledgement and praise
of the fact that he was right. He is the first American
President who has faced up, in twenty years and more, to
the existence of China. He is the first one who has faced up
to the necessity of having reasonable relations with the Soviet
Union. He is the first American President for twelve years who
faced up to the necessity of getting out of Vietnam and I
praised him for those three positive achievements.
WILLESEE: Are you the first Australian Prime Minister to face
up to an Axneican President?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, where he has been wrong as I thought he
was and every other leader in the world is of the same view.
He was wrong on the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong.
WILLESEE: Does it help for you to draw his-* attention to his
embarrassement over the Watergate?
PRIME MINISTER: I didn't. The Watergate was raised by my
predecessor.
WILLESEE: And you answered?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. What am I to say? He is in a parlous
position and so is the Presidency because of deficiencies which
have now been shown in the American system compared with ours.
Now look, let's face it. Mr Heath or I, we face a Parliament
every day it is sitting. If president Nixon had had to be in
touch with public opinion every day the Congress was sitting,
things wouldn't have been allowed to drag on till they became
so critical
WILLESEE: Alright, you support
PRIME MINISTER: And I do prefer, and there are many forms of
democracy in the world, I must say I prefer the system where the
Executive is responsible to the legislature.
WILLESEE: Now you stand by your actions and your words about
President Nixon, but you must accept that a lot of people think...
PRIME MINISTER: That is, I praise him where he is right.
I have done so publicly. I have explained to him privately
where I have thought he was wrong.
WILLESEE: Well, let's accept that there are some people, it
doesn't matter how many, in Australia who are most concerned
about what you said. What are you going to do to allay their
fears? Will you meet President Nixon?
PRIME MINISTER: I would expect so. No arrangements have been
made yet. But I am glad you ra * ised this, because the last three
Prime Ministers of Australia has sought an official
invitation to visit the United States, as if it were a test
of legitimacy. They had to go to a coronation. Sir Robert
Menzies, Mr Menzies, he didn't wait for official invitations;
if he was going to Britain or the United States he would expect
to see the Prime Minister, the President. They don't wait
for an official invitation. I expect to see Mr Heath,
I expect to see Mr Nixon.
WILLESEE: It is a fair sort of gamble if it doesn't pay off
in Washington, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: On whose side?
WILLESEE: On your side.
PRIME MINISTER: Well let's face it. I am going. It has been
known for months that I am going to the Commonwealth Heads
of Government Conference in Ottawa early in August. Among the
many invitations that I have received to make official visits to
countries where Australian Prime Ministers have never previously
made a visit is Mexico and I said, right, I will go there on
the way to Ottawa. I will obviously go through or across the
United States, and in those circumstances I. would expect to see
Mr Nixon. After all, Australia and the United States are more
closely associated than most of the Commonwealth countries are
associated with the United States. What would be said if I went
straight to Ottawa and didn't visit the United States?
WILLESEE: What would be said if you went straight to Washington
and didn't see Nixon?
PRIME MINISTER: Wait until that happens. You know very well
that anything we say on this program will continue all the
speculation on this matter. Now I believe that President Nixon
is a mature, courteous head of government.
WILLESEE: A lot of Australians see a great need for a big
powerful friend in defence terms. They want some sort of
umbrella and they still see America as being No. 1.
PRIME MINISTER: In the case of a world war, that is so, I
agree. WILLESEE: You would not jeopardise that position?
PRIME MINISTER: Not at all. Don't forget, America needs us
in the case of a world war, just as much as we need America.
WILLIESEE: Do you accept that
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PRIME MINISTER: There is a mutuality of benefit here.
WILLESEE: Some Australian voters think that you are jeopardising
that umbrella?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course some of them think that; they brought
that at the last elections. But the majority of the Australian
people no longer want to touch the forelock to any great
power. They think Australia ought to make some decisions
herself. WILLESEE: Are you happy about the performance of your Cabinet?
PRIME MINISTER: In most cases I am delighted.
WILLESEE: Does Senator Murphy ernbarass you?
PRIME MINISTER: In some respects, yes; in other respects,
I am delighted with him.
WILLESEE: Where does he embarrass you?
PRIME MINISTER: I won't go over that. But let me bring in
where I am delighted. Nobody could have done more...
WILLESEE: I am sure people are more interested in
PRIME MINISTER: I am not. But I want the public to realise
that Senator Murphy has done a magnificent job, not just for
the Government, but for the Australian nation. In Britain
on the Privy Council issue. In The Hague, before the world
court, on the French Test Issue, and he will do so in modernising,
humanising, our laws. There is no man better equipped to do
these jobs, no man more dedicated in doing them, than
Senator Murphy.
WILLESEE: What about the Croatian controversy?
PRIME MINISTER: I will no re-hash that, at this notice.
Senator Murphy has my complete confidence in doing these things
I have mentioned.
WILLESEE: Do you think a Prime Minister should be able to say a
Cabinet Minister embarrasses me in some respects and let it go
at that? Shouldn't you do something about it?
PRIME MINISTER: I keep a sense of proportion. The important
things have been done splendidly.
WILLESEE: Does Dr Cairns embarrass you?
PRIME MINISTER: No. When he is doing his job as minister for
Overseas Trade he has been the most successful we have had in
our country's history. This visit he has just made to China
will be as significant as the relations which John McEwen was
able to establish with Japan in the middle fifties. This has
been a landmark in our overseas trade.
WILLESEE: You said when he is doing his job. What about when
he steps outside that job?
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PRIME MINISTER: Well, he doesn't. And I am not going into
various headlines there.
WILLESEE: Do you show unqualified support for Dr Cairns?
PRIME MINISTER: As Minister for Overseas Trade he is the best
Australia's ever had. This has been a landmark.
WILLESEE: You keep qualifying your support to that job.
PRIME MINISTER: I am not going to be distracted from the
essential things. I chose Dr Cairns in that portfolio and
I am delighted with his performance of it. And every Australian
ought to be proud of it. This was the biggest overseas trade
mission we've ever had. And it has been very successful.
WILLESEE: Would you like a Cabinet reshuffle?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: You are quite happy the way it is?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. That is the people that Caucus chose for
me I think were good choices. I mean I might have made a few
different choices, but they have been good choices. The
allocation of portfolios I would not change.
WILLESEE: Are you suprised by the performances of some of
your Ministers?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Who?
PRIME MINISTER: That is, I am still more pleased than I expected
to be with many of them, yes.
WILLESEE: Disappointed with some?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: What can you do about that?
PRIME MINISTER: They are learning.
WILLESEE: If you are disappointed with some why don't you
want a Cabinet reshuffle?
PRIME MINISTER: Because they are learning.
WILLESEE: Is it because you can't?
PRIME MINISTER: I could reshuffle the Cabinet, that is, I can
reallocate the portfolios whenever I want to. I don't want to.
They are doing very well.
WILLESEE: Would you like to have the right to choose your
Ministers?
PRIME MINISTER: No. Certainly not. A lot of people suggest
that somehow this is an embarrassment; it's not in the least.
And the most successful, the only successful Liberal leader in
Australia, Mr Hamer has the same sort of Cabinet, one elected
by his Caucus. That is the effective and democratic way
of going about it. I have alway5 supported it, not least now
that I have such a Cabinet.*
WILLESEE: In very general terms, how is the man in the street
affected by this Labor Government? What is different in his
country for him?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there are some external things that
we have mentioned already; for instance, what Connor has
done with the export of minerals to Japan, what Cairns has done
WILLESEE: Can I chip in, because that is almost not what I
ami talking about?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, OK then, you mean internally?
WILLESEE: Yes, Foreign Affairs, switch in emphasis and all that.
It takes a long time to get through to the man in the street.
How does he know he is in a different Australia? Or is he in
a different Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: Well there are very great number of people
who are already benefittingfrom the things which can be done
swiftly internally, such as welfare matters. There has been
the biggest improvement in welfare payments, repatriation,
social services, that there has ever been, and there is the
guarantee to maintain those benefits in the future. People
in the Armed Forces, certainly, and to a fairer extent the
Public Service, realise that they now have a Federal Government
which will look after them properly. The other things are
emerging; for instance this week we got what I think is
probably the most substantial achievement we have had so far.
We had the report of the Interim Schools Committee. I ordered
it before Christmas, it came in last Wednesday. A couple of
weeks before there was the one on the Insurance, the Health
Funds, and also this week there was the one on the Hospitals.
Now it is on this basis of expert reports which are now available
for everybody to read.
WILLESEE: Are things going fast enough for you?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I mean of course I would like to do some
things more quickly, but it is not possible to deal with, say,
hospitals and schools any faster than what we have. We have
acted on these very quickly. We were in six months last
Saturday and we have got the basic reports in already. Now
that is pretty fast work. The experts have collaborated with
us amazingly, and the State Government, I want to acknowledge
that too. N. S. W. has made available five of their Supreme
Court Judges. New Zealand has made one of their Judges of
Appeal available. And there are several Federal Judges and many
other top business people and academics are happy to work for
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us, because they know that what they say won't be suppressed,
the public will know what their recommendations are. We are
seeking advice, we are publicising it and w will try to carry
it out.
WILLESEE: Your programs are costing you more than you anticipated,
aren't they?
PRIME MINISTER: In some respects, yes.
WILLESEE: Does that alarm you?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. But at the same time we have a task
force under Dr Coombs, that will cut back on a lot of the
freakless expenditures which we inherited.
WILLESEE: Will this money problem stop you from doing some
things that you want to do?
PRIME MINISTER: It will stop us doing as many things as we want
or doing them as quickly as we wanted. That is true, but we
will be committing ourselves to the programs unquestioningly.
Let me give you an instance: I suppose we will not be able to
carry out the sewerage schemes in all our big cities as quickly
as we wanted to.
WILLESEE: Is your overall job much more difficult than you
thought it would be?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Is it easy?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it is not easy. It is satisfying. There
are some things which obviously I would be able to do better
and my colleagues would be able to do better, if, for instance
the States, were to hand over their railways, and their
hospitals to the Australian Government. The railways and the
hospitals in Australia would be very much better. This will
take longer. I am not surprised at their acting so slowly or
reluctantly, I accept that that is in the game.
WILLESEE: Are you a confident Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I suppose so.
WILLESEE: Are you confident enought to really have a double
dissolution and take both houses back to the electors.
PRIME MINISTER: If the Senate makes it clear, in a few months,
because there can't be a double dissolution for a few months,
the situation has not arisen yet, but if by the end of the
year or early next year it's plain that the Senate will not let
basic legislation through, then we will have a double
dissolution. WILLESEE: You are quite firm on that?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE; You are not prepared to concede any of your
substantive legislation?
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PRIME MINISTER: The important things are to get th ' e structure
transformed. To get basic legislation through, and if the
Senate prevents that then the people will have to decide.
WILLESEE: Will you let the doctors beat you?
PRIME MINISTER: No. Not just beating us, beat the public.
WILLESEE: How can you stop them?
PRIME MINISTER: The doctors depend for half their incomes on
the taxpayer. The doctors, specialists and surgeons, depend
on the public to provide them with their equipment, their
laboratories their operating theatres, and so on. There is no
calling in Australia which depends so much on public
expenditure taxation as the doctors.
WILLESEE: But precisely how do you make them compromise?
How do you make them see reason, see what you would see as
reason?
PRIME MINISTER: The conditions on which doctors use public
facilities, the conditions on which the public underwrites
doctors incomes, is determined by elected people, by Government.
WILLESEE: But if you take action in those areas you risk
hurting the people again, the patients.
PRIME MINISTER: No we won't.
WILLESEE: Are you satisfied you will win?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. Public opinion is behind us. Because
doctors will do very well out of our programs. We want the
public to have as good a health service as possible. Now don't
forget that the doctors are very much divided on this. There
are only, in simple terms, some of the general practitioners,
who are obstructing. The research people, the specialists,
the surgeons, the young ones, they are in general much in
favour of what we want to achieve on behalf of the Australian
public. WILLESEE: Mr Whitlam, we are now out of time now. You have been
Prime minister for six months, how long do you think you will
be Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: I am determined to give up the job before I
am sixty-five. So what is that, another three Parliaments?
WILLESEE: Mr Whitlam thanks very much for talking with us.