PARLIAMENT HOUSE, CANBERRAC,
TUESDAY 30 JANUARY 1973
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks ladies and gentlemen: First the Cabinet
decisions. We have sent for legislative drafting, four
schemes of tax avoidance which the Treasurer, Mr. Crean,
announced that we would be wanting to prevent from now on.
The purchase of company shells for tax avoidance purposes,
income tax concessions for capital subscriptions to mining
companies, income tax deductions for life insurance
premiums and payments to superannuation funds and avoidance
of tax through Norfolk Island. Mr. Crean will give you
the full details on any of those four if you have not got
them. Broadcasting of Parliamentary proceedings. The
present Act doesn't extend to the territories, i. e. in
case of defamation or possible defamation so we have resolved
to amend the Act to cover that situation.
Export of merino rams and semen. We are taking
steps to hold a referendum of the persons affected by any
lifting of the ban.
Amendments to the Conciliation and Arbitration
Act. There again, quite extensive amendments to the
present Act were approved for drafting of amending
legislation. Mr. Cameron would have a press conference
on these tomorrow if you wish.
A proposal for dental therapists and social
workers. Mr. Beazley can give you the explanation but in
brief they are these:
That the State Grants Advanced Education Act be
amended as soon as practicable to provide supplementary
grants for approximately $ 715,000 this year for training
up to 55 additional dental therapists and $ 40,000 this
year to establish a post-graduate course for social workers
commencing next year.
That there be an immediate announcement that the
Government will provide additional capital and recurrent
funds to enable colleges of advanced education to double
the number of places available for new dental therapy students
this year. C. A. E. scholarship,,, will be available subject
to the usual conditions for the enlarged student entry,
and the Government will provide additional funds this year
to enable the Tasmanian College of Advanced Education to
establish a post-graduate course for social workers
commencing in 1974. That fills out the proposals that have
already been announced for getting more trained men and
women to undertake pre-school education and social work
and dental therapy.
Then there was some decisions of Cabinet committees
which were ratified.
The Townsville International Airport terms of
reference. The Inquiry into the Australian Post Office.
The three Commissioners they will sit as Royal Commissioners
will be Sir James Vernon, Mr. Bernard
James Callinan, the senior partner of Gutteridge Haskins
and Davey, the engineers, and Mr. J. J. Kennedy, a Chartered
Accountant of Brisbane. .3/ e
A fresh reference to the Public Works Committee
of the Palmerston Highway in the Northern Territory and
the general lines of the new conditions on which the
Commonwealth will make money available to the States for
housing purposes next financial year and the following
years. A decision on Lake Pedder perhaps I should read
the full text. The Minister for the Environment and
Conservation is to be asked to advise the Cabinet on the
establishment of appropriate machinery to determine the
Australian Government's role with respect to the
environment in relation to past or future development
projects both in the States and in the territories. The
projects the committee had in mind are those which have
deleteriously affected or can so affect the environment.
The projects specifically mentioned in this context were
in addition to Lake Pedder, Cluther in New South Wales,
Black Mbuntain in the Australian Capital Territory and the
Alligator River in the Northern Territory.
P. M. Are there any questions?
Q. Prime Minister, two weeks ago you said that
Vietnam was the only area of dispute between Australia
and the United States. In view of the information which
I presume you and Mr. Barnard now have, can you say whether
you are in full agreement with the type and role of U. S.
installations in Australia?
P. M. There's no more information I have to give you
on that matter.
Q. Can you say whether you have made any further
studies?
P. M. No. 4/.
Q. Sir, on the same subject, can you tell us if
you have any information on the types of signals going
between Australia and Washington, in particular the role
of the Defence Department. Is there anything there in which
you feel you are perhaps under-informed or which you would
consider it would be important for you to know. I'm thinking
particularly of defence information which, there have been
a lot of rumours over the last few weeks, is being put by
members of the Department and by members of organisations
in the department without direct reference to the
Government to either you or Mr. Barnard?
P. M. I don't understand the purport of your question.
You mention rumours. I don't know what rumours you're
referring to.
Q. They are rumours that there are signals being
sent between Canberra and Washington which have not been
referred to either you or Mr. Barnard?
P. M. I think there'd be hundreds of such signals being
sent every day to various posts. It's quite obvious that
ministers can't see the text of every signal that is
received or transmitted. I have no knowledge of any signals
which have been sent which wouldn't be completely in
accordance with Government policy.
Q. Are you totally satisfied with the information
you've been getting from the Defence Department and from
the various security organisations about communications
between Canberra and Washington?
P. M. Whenever I've asked for any information in the
security field, I've been satisfied with the answer I was
given. Mr. Barnard has never expressed any doubts as to
the information he was given by his Department. My own
Department of Foreign Affairs I'm certain that it is
e
carrying out the Government's policy promptly and effectively.
Q. Prime Minister, the Premiers of Victoria and South
Australia have called for a Premiers' Conference in February.
Have you considered this and, if so, what is your answer?
P. M. I don't think they have formally asked for a
Premiers' Conference.
Q. You've received no formal request?
P. M. There has been a letter from each of them but
it's not a formal request. I would point out that the
Government acted very promptly much more promptly than
had been the case as far as I can remember in assisting
the States all the States with grants for employmentgiving
works. The assistance which has been given at
Premiers' Conferences which have been often held in
February was in fact granted as the result of direct
negotiations between the Treasurer and sometimes myself
and the State Premiers or Treasurers in every case before
the end of the year.
Q. Sir, how do you feel about a Premiers' Conference
in February?
P. M. I don't see the need for one.
Q. Are you in favour in principle of maki-ng public
the membership of inter-departmental committees?
P. M. Yes.
Q. Will you make public the membership of the
inter-departmental committee which is proposed by Dr. Cairns
and Mr. Crean into the question of export incentives.
P. M. Yes.
Q. If and when set up.
P. M. Yes.
Q. Will you make public the report of that committee?
P. M. It has been set up and I'll give you the
information. Q. The report of that committee will be made public?
P. M. I didn't say that. The membership I can give
you now*
Q. The third question was: will the report of that
committee be made public?
P. M. I don't remember ever having given an undertaking
of that character.
Q. I hadn't suggested that you had.
P. M. Well, probably not.
P. M. There is an inter-departmental committee to
consider the general question of export credit composed of
the Departments of Overseas Trade, Secondary Industry,
Treasury, Reserve Bank and Export Payments Insurance
Corporation. There is an inter-departmental committee to
deal with adjustment assistance for secondary industry
composed of Treasury, Overseas Trade and Secondary Industry.
There is a third inter-departmental committee dealing with
the question of export incentives composed of Treasury and
Secondary Industry.
Q. Mr. Whitlam, while you didn't commit yourself
to making inter-departmental committee reports public,
you, on a number of occasions asked in Parliament would
they be made public, and it was just in going through
today I noticed for example, in respect to the superannuation o o
report superannuation I seem to remember you asked the
inter-departmental committee report to be made public and
so there was an inferential support of this idea; and
while also looking at that I noticed the available report
itself was never made public despite the fact that you
asked for it. Could you tell us when all these documents
which you requested be made public will be made public?
P. M. The general position is that they are tied in
with the question of making public documents before an
earlier government, and the practice has been hitherto
that the documents which have been before a preceding
government are not made public without the consent of the
head of the party or parties which composed that previous
government. I wouldn't depart from that practice without
very serious consideration but I have not, at this stage,
asked the heads of the Liberal Party and the Country Party
whether they would mind any such documents being published.
The whole thrust of my questions and statements on these
subjects in earlier Parliaments was that the late
Government used to hide behind the fact that an interdepartmental
committee had been set up to look into certain
subjects and one could never find out One couldn't
for the last two years, find out what Departments were on
these inter-departmental committees and when they had
reported. Mr. Gorton used to make available the names
of the inter-departmental committees and the Departments
which sat on them and somewhere about the beginning of 1971
he changed his policy and in that respect Mr. McMahon did
not change a Gorton policy. So you've asked me who sits
on these inter-departmental committees I've given you.
If you later ask me if the inter-departmental committees
have reported I expect I would tell you if they had.
Q. Do you have a closed mind to the proposition of
giving us inter-departmental committee reports? .8/ o
P. M. No, I haven't got a closed mind about it, but
in these matters it is the Ministers who have to take the
responsibility and I believe we will tell you the procedure
by which we are arriving at our decisions. We'll not
fob you off by refusing to tell you who are on these
inter-departmental committees or when they have reported.
Q. Will you be asking the heads of the Liberal and
Country Parties whether they mind these documents being
made public?
P. M. I may, I mean one subject which is under
consideration of course is the Moreshead Committee Report.
Q. Sir, on the same subject, you say you think
you should inquire of the preceding government whether a
report should be made public?
P. M. No, whether Cabinet documents should be made
public, and these have all, we find, all these Committee
Reports have been attached to Cabinet documents.
Q. Well, Sir, during the election campaign you made
quite a lot out of the Bureau of Transport Economics
Report, You don't see any inconsistency in what you're
telling us now with what you did during the campaign?
P. M. No, well there are two matters there one I think
was the sleepers, you know, the railway sleepers, the concrete
or the hardwood you know what the Government's policy is
there. It is calling for tenders for the most economic
form of sleeper. The other one was about the B. T. E's
reports on urban transport and I think I've written to
all the Premiers on those reports on the investigations
which the B. T. E. made into urban transport, and I'm not
sure if I've written to the Tasmanian Premier because
Tasmania was not covered in the original report. Melbourne 9/.
was not adequately covered because the Victorian
Government hadn't given sufficient information. Some of
the other States you remember hadn't given any information
on underground railways, so I've obeen in correspondence,
I think, with all the Premiers on that B. T. E. report on
urban transport.
Q. The Australian Proprietary Sugarmillers' Association
said today that they had no objection to a public inquiry
into the home price of sugar when next they apply for a
variation in the price presumably upwards. Would you
have any objection in principle to these State industry
and Commonwealth talks on the home price of sugar being
held in public in future?
P. M. I'd want to discuss this with my Minister. I've
not considered it.
Q. Mr. Whitlam, a week ago, Senator Wriedt after
conferring with you announced that he had approved the
export of 30 Merino rams to China. Could you tell us
the procedures by which this decision was arrived at. It
seemed to many who wrote about it that the decision was
inconsistent with Labor policy. Could you explain that
and could you explain if an exception was made in that
case purely to be nice to the Chinese?
P. M. This was the only application that had been received
by the present Government. It had no bearing on it that
the destination was China. It's the only application for
an export licence which the Government had received. We
found that the deal has not been concluded and, accordingly,
it is possible for us to have a referendum on the subject
as the Party Platform prescribes.
Q. On that particular subject, Sir
P. M. I think there are some other people that
haven't asked a question.
Q. I was going to ask you about the same question.
P. M. Would you announce your name because people will
understand why you take an interest in rural matters?
Q. Richard Farmer: Do I take it from that answer
that the rams will now not go to China?
P. M. That will depend on the result of the referendum.
Q. But Sir, what was announced last week is not now
applicable. Is that right?
P. M. No. Because the deal had not in fact been
concluded it has not been concluded.
Q. As a supplementary, who will take part in the
referendum?
P. M. That's been worked out.
this for next Tuesday's Cabinet. We'll have a paper on
Q. You can't give us any idea of whether it will
be just graziers or
P. M.
affected. No, I can't. The Party Policy says the persons
Q. On the supplementary to the supplementary would
we be correct in drawing
P. M. Max, you haven't asked a question.
Q. It's not another supplementary, Sir. It's on
another subject. Lord Carrington's visit at the end of
the week which you and Mr. Barnard and other Ministers will
see him / 11.
P. M. Yes.
J-066I take it that you will reaffirm to him as
tie p~ robably already knows that we will withdraw our
infantry battalion group from Singaporeso
P. M. We will not replace them at the end of their term
of duty.
Q. However I understand that several hundred, perhaps
up to 500 or 600 Australian soldiers will remain in
logistic support at the signal in Singapore. Has this been
made clear too?
P. M. Well I haven't spoken to Lord Carrington about
this but of course it'll be made clear. I would imagine
he's quite he knows what we've said on this..
WJ. Why I asked was I think it was generally inferred
that the whole 1300 or nearly the whole 1300 would be
coming home. It now appears that perhaps only about half
P. M. That would be an inaccurate inference.
Q. Now finally could you indicate the other matters
other than ANZAC and Defence matters that you may be
discussing with Lord Carrington?
P. M. I'm happy to discuss with Lord Carrington any
matter which he thinks the British Government would like
to discuss with me. There's no agenda. Lord Carrington
knows Australia well and Mr. Barnard and I, I think, can
claim to know him well because we knew him when he was
British High Commissioner here in the late fifties and we
always see him when we are in London.
Q. But apart from what he might want to put to you,
have you got anything specific to put to him apart from
the Defence side? 12/.
12.
P. M. I think -there'll be quite a wide ranging discussion.
I'll have some hours with him and some of my other
collieagues will be also in the talks for part of the time
so I think there'll be quite a wide range of matters of
mnutual interest. There is no agenda. Lord Carrington
is a very easy person with whom to have a discussion.
ve Sir, on the subject of Lord Carrington, will you
be open to argument to change your mind on any subject
which you raise?
P. M. Of course, I always am.
Q. But with Lord Carrington?
P. M. Of course. And he's one of the most persuasive
of men.
Q. That's what I meant.
P. M. Lord Carrington is not just another Lord. He
is a very important member of the British Government and
of the Conservative Party.
Q. You've said Sir, he knows Australia well. fie
knows Australian politics well, too, Sir?
P. M. Yes.
W. He will therefore have some firm intentions.
Will you be prepared to hear his arguments in view of that?
P. M. Of course. Noblesse oblige.
That's for Agence France Press.
Q. Sir, on Merino rams. Can I ask why the decision...
P. M. You gentlemen are taking a great interest in them..
13/.
13.
Q. Can I ask you why the matter wasn't referred
initially to Cabinet instead of allowing Senator Wriedt
to make a decision which was apparently in conflict with
ALP policy?
P. M. It was a matter which we hadn't got round to
discussing. No one really was expecting an application
on this subject. The next auctions were thought to be I
think next June.
Q. Mr. Whitlam, I thought the next auctions were
on February 6 in Dubbo.
P. M. Well, there are going to some in March, I now
learn.
Q. Just to return to this point, I know that
Merinos aren't very important
P. M. I wouldn't have thought so.
Q. We're in the novel situation trying to work out
procedures with the new Labor Government. It always struck
us that it was part of the Labor Party philosophy that the
opinions the conference decision were binding. The
conference decision is quite unequivocal in this area
P. M. That's right.
Q. And both yourself and Mr. Wriedt in consultation
have decided to override the conference decision. Is
that correct?
P. M. No.
Q. Well it would seem to be, Sir, that the statement
put out last week by Senator Wriedt under his name flew
in the face of the conference advice. 14/.
14.
P. M. We now find that it is possible that since the
deal has not been made that we can go ahead with a
referendum.
Q. Was there any suggestion that the deal would have
been made within a day or two before the Cabinet meeting?
P. M. It could have been made, it was thought, last
week. But in fact it's now found that it was not. The
deal has not been concluded.
Q. If I could sheepishly ask another question
about sheep Sir, did Senator Wriedt confer with you on
this subject can you confirm that? Were there any
complaints after the decision was announced complaints
from unions or anyone else that this flew in the face
of Labor Policy, and can you explain to us why you were
apparently prepared to breach Labor policy until you found
that the deal hadn't gone through?
P. M. There have been no complaints as far as I know
from unions or anybody else on this subject. This is
scarcely a matter of as great interest as it was four
years or even one year ago.
Q. Sir, on the question of a wider topic the
uniform building code: There seems as though there'll be
some State opposition to the introduction of a uniform
building code. Have you any thoughts at this stage on how
the Federal Government will persuade the State Governments
to agree to the adoption of that policy that you pledged
before the election?
P. M. You are being very obscure. What State opposition
do you expect?
Q. Melbourne and Queensland, Sir.
P. M. Mr. Dickey has changed his mind in the past
in fact in the last couple of weeks. In Queensland the
question scarcely arises because there is a single building
code throughout the Brisbane City Council area. If there
was a single building code throughout the Melbourne and
the Sydney Metropolitan areas the average house in those
areas would cost $ 800 less.
Q. But in the Queensland country areas, Sir, there
are I think 134 different building codes required by the
1ocal government authorities.
P. M. The mischief doesn't occur in Queensland. Where
the expense arises is where builders, architects, surveyors,
tradesmen in general have to operate in an area where
there are several conflicting codes. In Queensland, local
government areas in general are larger than in the other
States; and accordingly one does not have the waste of
money in Queensland that one has in all the other States.
The ordinary builder, surveyor, tradesman operating in any
Queensland provincial city operates in the terms of a single
building code. This is one reason why houses in general
in Queensland cost less than in any of the other States.
Q. In view of Mr. Dickey's statement, Sir, I
wondered if you could give us an indication of how far
you're prepared to support the Housing Minister in his
endeavours to carry out policy pledges in the housing area
with the States?
P. M. I'm prepared to support Mr. Johnson, the Minister
for Housing, completely in this area. I welcome the
opportunity to point out that it's been known for years
the Jennings family have proclaimed it for many years past
that the average home costs now $ 800 more than it needs .16/.
16.
to cost because there are so many conflicting building
codes in the largest Australian cities; and these
building codes depend not only on local government requirements,
they also depend and in Queensland they can partly depend
on this on the varying requirements of the lending
authorities. The Commonwealth, under the Constitution,
can have a very great influence on standardising the
codes accepted by the lending institutions. The Constitution
gives the Commonwealth Parliament power to legislate with
respect to banking and insurance. The Commonwealth also
of course makes most of the Government funds available for
housing by way of Housing Commission and War Service Homes
finance. Incidentally, the War Service Homes Act will be
renamed Defence Services Homes Act because it will now of
course be available to people in the Armed Services in
general not just to those that have had active service
overseas.
Q. Sir, in the light of the continuing relatively
high unemployment figures, is the Government restricting
the growth the increased growth in the Public Service
to the 3 per cent limit laid down by the previous Government?
P. M. That still stands. At this stage it's not been
considered by the new Government.
Q. Can I ask a further one Sir: In view of the
number of new Departments that have been established, will
this not place a strain upon the existing if this limitation
is continued?
P. M. No. There can be savings in some areas such as
Immigration and Labour and National Service.
P. M. Gentlemen, I think this is understood. Anyone
who hasn't yet asked a question gets one before those that
have already had one get a second 17/.
17.
Q. Can you tell me, Sir, in the light of the meeting
soon in the field of Trade with New Zealand and also the
meetings that have gone on this week in New Zealand
between Australia and New Zealand and Canadian Dairy Boards,
will we be likely to see co-operation between Australian
and New Zealand on world markets including the Australian
home market?
P. M. This will all be discussed by the New Zealand
Minister for Trade and Dr. Cairns, Mr. Freyer, and the
Minister for Overseas Trade, Dr. Cairns, when they meet o
It's quite soon isn't it?
P. M. I can't see you in this distress Mr. Hawke,
will you ask your third question?
Q. There was a question that wasn't answered the
last time. At the time Senator Wriedt and yourself made
the decision about the export of Merinos, I take it that
it wasn't known whether the Chinese deal would come into
operation. Is it to be taken then that the decision to
fly in the face of Labor Conference policy
P. M. I won't have you saying that. There's no flying
in the face of Labor policy by me or anybody else.
Q. Well, is the fact that there was no flying in
the face of Labor Party policies simply dependent on the
fact that the deal didn't go through before the referendum?
P. M. The decision today has been made in the light
of the fact that we find that we can take a referendum
or that we believe that we'll be able to hold a referendum.
Q. Over the weekend the Leader of the Opposition
advertised two positions on his staff which seemed to be
considerably higher salary than that being paid 18/.
18,
P. M. Yes, they did.
Q. Has that been approved by the Government these
salaries, and has it been approved by the Government, the
Leader of the Opposition and other members including the
Leader of the Country Party and the Deputy Leader of the
Country Party have their staff arrangements been approved?
P. M. Mr. Snedden was told that he could have two
Private Secretaries as his predecessor had. He was not
told what the salary would be. The salary appropriate
for the positions will depend on the calibre of the
persons attracted to them. On that, the Public Service
Board's advice will be sought as it has been on all
Ministerial staff appointments as regards salary.
Q. Could I add something supplementary to that. If
he was to advertise for a man at a salary of $ 20,000 a
year and if you could get a man appropriate for that
salary, does that mean that it would be approved?
P. M. I would want to take the Public Service Board's
advice. I don't fix salaries.
Q. Sir, could you outline the proposed changes in
the Arbitration system which Mr. Cameron is to develop
tomorrow and specifically do they affect the penal
clauses?
P. M. I said earlier that if you want an explanation
of these Mr. Cameron is willing to have a press conference
tomorrow. Let him deal with it as a whole.
Q. Sir, you said last weekend regional co-operation
would be a cornerstone in Australia's foreign policy.
Does that mean a significant increase in foreign aid to
South-East Asia?
P. M. Yes. 19/.
190
2. Could you tell me whether Senator Wriedt got the
approval or contacted any of his ministerial colleagues
before he made his announcement last week?
P. M. He spoke to me.
Q. Did he have your approval?
P. M. Yes.
Q. Sir, in view of the fact that there's been
precious little evidence so far that any of the benefits
of up-valuation will be passed on to the consumers in the
form of lower prices, has the Government got any active
policy in mind to ensure that the importers and manufacturers
who take advantage of the up-valuation on the import side
will pass the advantages on to the consumer?
P. M. The Prices Justification Tribunal will cover that
situation. Q. Sir, going back to your earlier remarks about
secrecy, will it be possible for members of the public to
look at papers presented to Ministers which involved the
exercise of ministerial discretion and, in particular,
would it be possible to look at those where the Treasurer
decides whether there should be an inquiry into a takeover
by a foreign company and specifically could I look at
the ones involving the takeover of the Australian Equitable
Insurance Company Limited by Samuel?
P. M. I wouldn't think so. I guess that you're
referring to the fact that our High Commissioner in
Britain had an interest in the Company being taken over.
Is that it? e.
Q. That was one thing that intrigued me, but..
P. M. Yes, but I hope you don't think I'm too
suspicious if I think that was the motivation of your
question. Q No, not at all, Sir.
P. M. There is a High Commissioner United Kingdom
Act which lays down very strict provisions as to a ny
shareholdings or directorates enjoyed by the High
Commissioner. They are the most stringent conditions
in any Federal or State Constitution or Statute as far
as I know. Mr. Armstrong complied with them completely.
Gentlemen, I would have thought that I might have been
asked something about Sir William Dargie. I think
we've exhausted our time and if you don't mind I want
to get in something on this: Sir William Dargie wrote
to me on 27 December. He got an acknowledgement on
January from Dr. Wilenski. I wrote to him soon
after the date doesn't appear on my copy. I wrote
to him on 23 of January about the new Council for the
Arts, and he acknowledged that letter on 25 January.
In view of this chronology, I can't understand some of
the press reports which are attributed to him.