NEIL MITCHELL:
First in the studio, the Prime Minister, Mr Abbott – good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Morning, Neil.
NEIL MITCHELL:
If we could first, Prime Minister, MH17 – we’re told there are some 80 bodies still on the ground at the crash site. Is there any reason to believe some of them are Australian?
PRIME MINISTER:
We just don’t know how many bodies are still out there, Neil. We do know there are some because we’ve had Organisation for Security Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) inspectors out there. We’ve had our people onsite in a small way on three days now. There are certainly human remains left out there and that’s why I am utterly determined, our police team in Ukraine is utterly determined to get onsite as quickly as we can, as safely as we can get them back and get them home.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Is Russia frustrating us?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think the circumstances on the ground are frustrating. This is contested territory. You’ve got the Ukrainian government which is obviously keen to reassert its sovereignty over the whole country and you’ve got the Russian backed separatists which are determined to stop that. So it’s contested country. We’re doing our best to work with all parties, particularly the OSCE to ensure that we get access as quickly as possible and if it doesn’t happen today, we’ll have another go tomorrow and the day after and the day after because we are determined, Neil, to do the right thing by our dead and their loved ones.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So if Russia’s not frustrating, is it helping enough?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I think Russia is pursuing its own interests, but I suspect that it is at least partly in Russia’s interests at this time to ensure that our police mission successfully goes ahead.
NEIL MITCHELL:
There are reports there are now landmines in the area of the wreckage. There are certainly large trenches being dug around the area. Are you willing to risk Australian lives to get these bodies out?
PRIME MINISTER:
We won’t take unnecessary risks. At all times, Neil, I’ve been guided by the expert advice of people on the ground, led by Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, Commissioner Tony Negus of the AFP and our Chief of the Defence Force Mark Binskin. So I’m taking the best professional advice, but they all want to do the job and the job is to get in, to get cracking and to get out.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But it is by definition risky. Are you willing to send in Australian officials if there is a risk to life?
PRIME MINISTER:
We’re not going to take unnecessary risks but we are prepared to take reasonable risks to do an important job. Because let’s never forget, Neil, 38 innocent Australians have been murdered. 38 innocent Australians have been shot down out of the sky. 298 innocent people have been shot down out of the sky. This is an infamous crime and we should do what we can to get them back and to get them justice.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Obviously it’s unpredictable, it’s potentially dangerous. There have been suggestions that we have the SAS on stand-by if necessary to help – is that correct?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, we do have some elements of the ADF in Ukraine to help enable the police mission – the unarmed police mission. We also have some elements of the ADF in the Netherlands. This is an unarmed police mission, it’s a humanitarian mission. Our objective is not to have soldiers on the ground. Our objective, Neil, is to get our dead back.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But is it overstating it to say we have troops on stand-by?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I think it is because it overdramatises the situation, Neil. This is an unarmed police mission. We don’t want to be provoking anyone. We only have one mission and everyone in this particular part of the world has an objective. Our objective is purposeful, it’s proportionate, and it’s moral because what could be more moral and ethical than going in to claim your dead, to assist the investigation and to obtain justice.
NEIL MITCHELL:
And well what can be more unethical and immoral than frustrating that. I think it rests with Russia, does it not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, look, my objective is to secure our dead. That’s my objective. If you ask me about the geopolitical situation in Eastern Europe, of course it would be much better if we didn’t have large countries interfering in the affairs of small ones.
NEIL MITCHELL:
You said you’ll go back day after day after day and try. Are you saying you will not give up on getting these bodies? It might reach a stage where it just can’t be done.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we’re not at that stage, Neil. And I hope it never gets to that.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So you won’t give up?
PRIME MINISTER:
We will not readily be deterred here. I mean we are determined. I think if there’s one thing that Australia has shown over the last fortnight is that when something like this happens, we are determined to do the right thing by our people.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Is Australia willing to join sanctions against Russia if it does not cooperate?
PRIME MINISTER:
We already have some sanctions on Russia. Our priority is not further sanctions at this time. Our priority is getting our mission in there – that’s our priority. Down the track, we’re quite happy to look at this issue, but at the moment, it’s not our priority.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Where does Australia stand on the Russian resolution for the UN?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we’ve got a resolution – Resolution 2166 is a very, very strong resolution and that provides all the authority needed for the unarmed police mission to go in to secure the site, to recover remains, to assist the investigation and to do our best to secure justice. So we don’t need a further resolution and I’m always anxious with further resolutions that there might be ulterior motives involved, that it might all be about trying to secure some kind of an advantage in the games being played in Eastern Europe.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, you’ve told us about a couple of conversations with Vladimir Putin. Have you developed a relationship with him?
PRIME MINISTER:
Inevitably you do start to develop some kind of a relationship with anyone who you converse with, particularly if you’re conversing with them on deep and powerful subjects and the deaths of 298 innocent people, the anger that is felt right around the world at this infamous crime. And look, to his credit he was, I think, genuinely sorry about what happened.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But who said you’d be judged on his actions. I mean he said certain things to you. He hasn’t acted adequately has he?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it’s too early to say. If we get in, if we can recover our dead and assist the investigation and if that’s unhindered by the Russian backed separatists, well we’ll have to say that at least subsequent to the conversations, he has been as helpful as he can be.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Is it still open to you or is it still a possibility he could be declined an invitation to the G20?
PRIME MINISTER:
This is four months away still, Neil and there will no doubt be a lot of water flow under the bridge between now and the middle of November. I would like the G20 to go ahead as an economic gathering, not as a security gathering. I would like it to go ahead as an opportunity for the leaders of the largest and most representative economies to sit down constructively and collegially to work out what we can’t do, singularly and together, to make a more prosperous world, to make a more financial secure world and it would be better if Russia was there than absent, but I accept that that’s not the only consideration at play here.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Do you believe the airlines should declare – as the unions are arguing yesterday – declare to the passenger whether they’re flying over warzones?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that’s a very fair question. I am instinctively reluctant to be prescriptive here, but I must say if I was a passenger flying between Australia and Europe I would be curious about where I was flying. I can remember years and years ago on my first trip to Europe as a government minister looking out and thinking ‘that would be Iran down there’ and wondering about what may or may not have been happening. So look, I think people are perfectly entitled to ask and yes, they should be told.
NEIL MITCHELL:
We will move to other matters in a moment, but the memorial service which is planned on MH17 – what now?
PRIME MINISTER:
It’s going to be on August 7, it’s going to be here in Melbourne because some 16 of the Australian victims came from Victoria and it will be a multi-faith service at St Patrick’s Cathedral and I hope many members of the public will attend to support the families of the victims.
NEIL MITCHELL:
You mentioned at one stage that your own children have flown this route. Have you found this issue personally confronting?
PRIME MINISTER:
All of us fly, Neil – all of us fly. There are few Australians who have not got on a plane and flown to Europe, flown to London. So all of us can be 35,000 feet above very difficult contested ground and we all looked at the photographs of the dead and they were our friends, our neighbours, our family. You know, these are people who could so easily be our own loved ones. So I think there is a very strong sense amongst Australians that this is a violation of our way of life, not something that just happened in a remote country in unusual circumstances.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Do you feel a sense of history with it as well? In a sense it could define your Prime Ministership?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, it’s not about me, Neil. This is a terrible, terrible thing. This is an act dreadful beyond words, which has occurred to 298 innocent people including 38 Australians and the important thing is to respond with strength and purpose in these circumstances.
NEIL MITCHELL:
It’s now some weeks – it’s the final point on this. Are you still optimistic of getting the bodies back?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I am. I’m not sure of it, but I’m confident of it because it is so obviously the right thing to do and I know that what we want to do is a distraction to others who have their own purposes. But our purpose is so obviously right and proper that I believe it will prevail.
NEIL MITCHELL:
We’ll take a break, other issues for the Prime Minister and I’d hope time for calls.
Prime Minister, excuse me, there’s a lot of other questions. Clive Palmer says you need a mini-Budget or a double dissolution – what do you say?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no, we need the crossbenchers in the Senate to respect the Government’s mandate and we did get a clear mandate to get the Budget back under control, we got a clear mandate to repeal the mining tax and the spending associated with this tax that’s raising little money but causing a lot of disruption to investment and to employment.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So you won’t get either?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, we will sit down with the crossbenchers and we will respectfully talk to them about what we have in mind. But, what they have to accept is that we have a debt and deficit disaster, we are borrowing a billion dollars every single month just to pay the interest on Labor’s debt and we cannot continue spending money that we just don’t have.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, the Middle East – 23 days it’s been running, 1,300 Palestinians dead, 60 Israelis dead – 56 of those soldiers – a UN school hit overnight apparently by Israeli shells, or the Israelis are still investigating that – 3,000 Palestinians there, 15 dead. This is what the UN Deputy Director-General said, he began a media conference about it –
JAN ELIASSON:
Ladies and gentlemen of the press, dear friends. Sometimes you run out of words. We have received with shock and dismay the news of the bombing this morning of a UN designated shelter and all indicators are that it was Israeli artillery that hit the school.
NEIL MITCHELL:
I repeat, Israel is not admitting responsibility, they are investigating and they said if it was them, it wasn’t deliberate. 15 dead, some children – should Israel back off?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there should be a ceasefire, Neil, no doubt about that.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Who’s responsibility is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
There should be a ceasefire. It should be a ceasefire immediately by both sides. That’s what there should be, because plainly, too many people are dying. It’s just wrong what’s happening, so there should be a ceasefire. In the end, what we do need to work towards is a lasting solution in the Middle East, and that is a two-state solution where the Palestinians do accept Israel’s right to exist behind secure borders.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Do you approve there’s an element of anti-Semitism entering this now? A lot of the criticism seems to be focused on Israel which in the end is under attack itself.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that’s right and every other day there are rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza. Now, they’re not normally very effectual because, amongst other things, of the Israeli Iron Dome missile defence system which is a sort of a technological triumph, it’s a work of apparent genius. But nevertheless, Israel and Gaza and the Palestinians more generally need to sit down and we need a two-state solution and it does have to be based on a recognition of Israel’s right to exist behind secure borders.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Ok. So who does Australia support in this? In simple terms, are the Israelis right?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don’t necessarily support every single thing that the Israeli government does because…
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well aren’t they justified in this attack?
PRIME MINISTER:
… they’re capable of making mistakes just like everyone else is, but no one intends, or should intend, any attack which results in the death of innocent people. Now, we support Israel’s right to exist, we support Israel’s right to self-defence, we support the Palestinians’ right to a state of their own, but that’s got to go hand-in-hand with the recognition of Israel’s right to exist behind secure borders. The problem in the Middle East is that in the end so many people are not prepared to accept Israel’s right to exist.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Some are saying Israel’s over-reacted. Has it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, as you know, Neil, I’ve been rather more focused on the MH17 matter than I have on this and I’m reluctant to judge. All I say is that there should be an immediate ceasefire. Innocent people are dying. But, we must also be working towards a long-term solution that does involve the recognition of Israel’s right to exist behind secure borders.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Ed? Go ahead please, Ed.
CALLER:
G’day, Neil. Hello, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hi, Ed.
CALLER:
Hi. Simple question: yes or no – don’t be wishy-washy – is Putin coming to the G20 in Brisbane? Don’t be wishy-washy, yes or no?
NEIL MITCHELL:
Don’t be wishy-washy, Prime Minister!
PRIME MINISTER:
I would like to be in a position for him to continue to attend.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So it’s not a yes or no yet? Either’s possible.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, Ed, I know you’ll be disappointed, but a lot can happen in four months.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Are you disappointed, Ed?
CALLER:
I’m absolutely disappointed you’re not sending out a strong signal to us, Australians or the world. I mean, the fact of the matter is there’s all these sanctions in place, there’s all these travel bans yet he’s still travelling the whole world. I don’t understand it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Ok. Anything to add, Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look, I could hardly have been clearer when all this happened. Our people were murdered and they were murdered because their plane was shot down by Russian-backed rebels. Now, that is the absolute truth and as time goes by, absolutely nothing has emerged to cast any substantial doubt on that initial analysis.
NEIL MITCHELL:
On a serious point, Julie Bishop’s doing a good job on this. On a not so serious point, does that mean she’s now heir apparent ahead of Joe?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you’re right; it’s a not so serious point, Neil…
NEIL MITCHELL:
So who’s the heir apparent?
PRIME MINISTER:
… this is a parlour game beloved of journalists and political intriguers.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Oh and a few politicians enjoy it as well.
PRIME MINISTER:
Neil, look, I am very lucky. There are a lot of very talented people on the Coalition frontbench – Joe, Julie, Malcolm, Scott and others. I mean, there are a lot of talented people on the frontbench, but I’m not intending to do anything other than my current job.
NEIL MITCHELL:
And Joe and Malcolm are mates again, are they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, it’s a very good solid team. I mean…
NEIL MITCHELL:
A bit of tension?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh Neil, look, we occasionally have our arguments, but arguments between friends are usually a good way of better approaching what is right and true.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Twiggy Forrest has suggested in a report to you, as it was reported in The Australian today, effectively a voucher system for welfare. Does that appeal?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I’m not sure that’s exactly what he’s suggesting. As you might know, Neil, we have this system of welfare quarantining, where people in some places on some sorts of benefits get 50 per cent of their benefit available to them as cash and 50 per cent of it has to be spent on the necessities of life through this thing called a Basics Card. At the moment, it’s quite administratively cumbersome, and what Twiggy’s talking about in the report, which will be released tomorrow and will be available for everyone to see, is using smarter technology to make that work easier.
Now, I’m happy to look at better technology because where it is appropriate to have a system of welfare quarantining – and a lot of people actually opt for this, they think, “It will help me to budget better if I’ve got a system like this” – where it is appropriate to have a system of welfare quarantining, let’s try to make it work as smoothly and as efficiently as possible.
NEIL MITCHELL:
According to the latest Budget, the welfare bill’s $146 billion. Can we afford to continue that? Is this the key issue we’re facing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well what we need to try and do is to ensure that our society is as productive as possible. Now at the moment, Neil, we have five working age people for every retirement age person and in 2050, on current trends, we’ll only have three working age people for every retirement age person.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Are these people bludging on the system or are these people that are genuine in their problems?
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m trying to give you the dimensions of the overall problem. One of the reasons why we want to lift the retirement age to try to get people to be economic contributors for longer, is because if the retirement age was 70 as opposed to 65, in 2050 we would have four working age people for everyone one retirement age person.
NEIL MITCHELL:
There’s a symbolism though, Prime Minister. Some of the people under the Work for the Dole scheme it’s been reported today, will in fact be working side by side with criminals who are on community service orders. That’s not a good look, is it? They’re not criminals.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no, and people who are working out their sentence are, in a sense, paying their dues to society. What we’re trying to do here is to give people who are longer term unemployed the opportunity to show everyone what they can do, not what they can’t do. Work for the Dole was something that I was very involved with under the Howard government – a terrific programme. It has, I regret to say, been largely butchered under the former government and we need to bring it back and bring it back strongly.
NEIL MITCHELL:
And in a word, you’re still committed to paid parental leave?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I don’t break promises and this was a promise I took to two elections.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thanks, Neil.
[ends]