JUSTIN SMITH:
The Prime Minister is on the line, Tony Abbott. Prime Minister, thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
G’day, Justin.
JUSTIN SMITH:
What have you heard about this information that fighting may have stopped the team from getting through?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, this was a matter that was in the hands of our people on the spot. Yes, there was fighting yesterday and there was fighting the day before. A few hours ago we were optimistic that there was an agreement with both the Ukrainian Government and with the separatists for a humanitarian corridor to be opened for the Dutch/Australian mission to go in. I haven’t heard that it’s been turned around. A couple of hours ago, we were optimistic that it would be able to go through but, in the end, this is a decision for the people on the spot. We want to get in as quickly as we can, as safely as we can, and that’s a judgment that can only be made by the people on the ground.
JUSTIN SMITH:
As I’ve mentioned, it has been a sad couple of weeks but it must be enormously frustrating, because you have talked to the families and not being able to give them the full story because we simply don’t have the full story. It must be incredibly tough on them.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, it is. We’ve got a reasonably good idea that the plane was brought down by a missile – I think that’s absolutely crystal clear – but the forensic detail is yet to be worked out and that will happen in coming days and weeks.
But look, this is an atrocity – it’s not an accident, it’s an atrocity. The tragedy for the families is not only have they lost their loved ones under appalling circumstances, but inevitably, there’s going to be quite a long wait before their loved ones come home because we know from experience at Bali that when you’ve got very badly damaged bodies it does take a long time to get the identification right and even to talk about this is a wrench, but nevertheless, that’s the truth. In Bali, I think we got the first body identified after about three weeks and the last one I think took almost five months, so that’s an indication of the timeframes that may well apply here as well.
JUSTIN SMITH:
I know that these would be incredibly personal conversations that you would have with the families, but if you’re able to share with us, what are you able to say to them? What things have you been saying to them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I guess the first thing to say, Justin, is that I feel hopelessly inadequate in these kinds of conversations. I suspect almost anyone would. It’s, in a sense, a privilege to be able to talk to people, even under these circumstances, but I’m very conscious of the inadequacy of my words, of I suspect anyone’s words, but of the importance of contact being made and of something being said, because when people are in the most grievous pain, when an unimaginable void has opened up, I guess that’s when you want some people to reach out to you and naturally you want your nearest and dearest to reach out first and foremost. You want to be reminded of love at a time when loved ones have been taken away and I guess you also want to know that at every level of the system people care. So, that’s what I’ve been trying to do in my own way, that’s what Julie Bishop has been doing because she’s made quite a number of calls, I think the Governor-General has been making a number of calls and, obviously, family members near and far, friends near and far, neighbours, I think the broader Australian family has taken people into its arms.
JUSTIN SMITH:
When you talk to the families, do they feel supported by Australia? Because, I really hope so.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, there’s been a universal, at least amongst the families that I’ve spoken to – and I haven’t been able to speak to all of them because not all of them wanted a call from a politician – but amongst the families that I’ve spoken to, there’s been universal praise for the work of our officials. As you know, or as your listeners probably know, Justin, within 24 hours the next of kin and the families had been contacted by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade Crisis Team and every family has had a dedicated DFAT officer to stay in regular touch and that will continue for many weeks and months to come. There’s been an AFP team; again, every family’s had a dedicated member until some of the forensic issues have been sorted through.
So, there’s been a lot of serious contact between the Government and families and next of kin at all levels and I think that even through their terrible pain, families have been fairly appreciative of what’s been done.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Because I think, and it’s certainly not about politics, but I think people from all around Australia feel very proud of you, they feel very proud of Julie Bishop and the way that you have both conducted yourselves and the support that you have given. How has this affected you? Have you had the chance to stop and think about how it’s affected you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Justin, it’s not about me and much as I similarly admire the work that Julie Bishop has done, I admire the work that the Governor-General has done, I admire the work that our people at every level, from the CDF and the AFP Commissioner down to the people who are right now in Ukraine or deploying to Ukraine, I admire all of their work. But it isn’t about us; it’s about the Australian people and…
JUSTIN SMITH:
No, I understand that, but you represent us through them and…
PRIME MINISTER:
Indeed I do, Justin, but look, I’m sure Julie would say the same thing: we have simply been doing our job. When our country faces a serious challenge like this – and it is a serious challenge when 38 of your own citizens are shot out of the sky by people who frankly should never, ever have been given access to weaponry of this type – when 38 of your people have been shot out of the sky in this way you do have to I guess lead the nation in anger, but you can’t let anger cloud your judgment. You’ve got to then respond in a way which respects people’s loss, which stands up for our values and our citizens and their rights, and which is appropriate with the behaviour of a serious and self-respecting country.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But you mentioned anger, and I’m glad you did because it’s an important emotion. We’ve felt sad but we also need to feel angry otherwise we’re not going to get any answers here. Are you satisfied with the communication that you have with Vladimir Putin? Is he an honourable man? Are you able to talk with him properly?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Justin, I have, to President Putin’s credit, been able to have a number of conversations with him. I’ve had a number of conversations with quite a few international leaders over the last 10 days or so and, certainly, they have all expressed very deep sympathy and condolences for Australia’s loss and for the losses of the other countries such as the Netherlands and Malaysia and all have pledged cooperation. But where I guess we want to see people’s words backed up with actions on the ground in the Eastern Ukraine and at the moment, fighting is raging between Russian-backed separatists and the Ukrainian Government.
Both the separatists, through the Organisation for Security Co-operation in Europe, the Ukrainian Government, through its people from President Poroshenko down, and indeed the Russians, through President Putin, have all said that they want the fighting to stop, at least insofar as is necessary for the site to be secured, the bodies to be recovered, the investigation to be assisted and justice to be done. They’ve all said that, and I guess what I’m hoping is that all of them will be as good as their word and we’re making the strongest, sternest representations possible at every level, to all of the people who have some influence on the ground, to make sure that this happens as quickly as it can.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Do you believe that President Putin is doing everything he can to make it happen?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I’ll be in a much better position to speak of all of the actors in this situation when we have secured our objectives, and the point I keep making is that our objective…
JUSTIN SMITH:
But surely it is a part of those objectives? We need his help.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, Justin. And Justin, our objective is to get in, to get cracking, to get out. It didn’t work on Sunday, it didn’t work yesterday, let’s see if it works today. But, if at first you don’t succeed, try, try, and try again.
We will not be readily deterred here. We have a mission. Of all of the people who are currently involved in the situation in the Eastern Ukraine, the Dutch and the Australians have a pure and simple and moral mission: it’s to get in there, to get our people out and to bring them home.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Prime Minister, part of that anger has manifested itself into not allowing President Putin to come to Australia for the G20. Is that a decision you’ve made yet?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, the point I’ve made from the beginning is that the G20 is an economic forum, it’s not a security forum, and my hope is that the G20 can gather in the normal way and look at how we can collectively and collegially improve the economy of the world, improve the way the world’s economies interact so that everyone can be better off. And plainly, the more significant economic players are there, the more likely it is that we will get a good result. So, that’s my hope for the G20…
JUSTIN SMITH:
So, at this stage Putin is still coming?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the G20 is four months away and the point I’ve been making about everyone in the drama unfolding in the Eastern Ukraine now is they’ve all said the right thing, let’s try to ensure that everyone is as good as his word and if everyone is as good as his word, we will respond accordingly.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Prime Minister, if you don’t mind, I just want to ask you quickly, I know you need to get away but you’ve released your details – for want of a better term – the Work for the Dole policy, you’ve released your detail on that.
PRIME MINISTER:
It’s not just Work for the Dole, although Work for the Dole’s an important aspect of it.
What it is, Justin, is it’s an exposure draft for the next Job Services Australia tender round, so this is about the work that government funded agencies will do with unemployed people to try to reintegrate them into the economy or, in the case of Work for the Dole, not only reintegrate them into the economy but, as well, try to reintegrate them into society, because inevitably, if you are at a loose end for a long time, it’s easy to drift out of contact and Work for the Dole in all of its various manifestations is an opportunity for people to show what they can do rather than what they can’t do.
JUSTIN SMITH:
The concern that’s been brought up today – and I just want to play you something very quickly. I talked to Peter Strong, he’s the President of the Council of Small Business of Australia, with concerns over the 40 jobs that people will need to apply for. Just a quick listen, if you don’t mind, Prime Minister.
PETER STRONG:
Forty visits per month is just going to create a nightmare. It’s not workable and I feel very confident the Government won’t go ahead with that particular part of their strategy.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Do you think that you’ll keep that part of the policy?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I hear what Peter Strong is saying. I know Peter Strong. He’s been a very effective advocate for small business and over the years in different capacities I’ve had a bit to do with him and…
JUSTIN SMITH:
He says he wasn’t consulted on this.
PRIME MINISTER:
… my ministers have had a bit to do with him. The reason why we’re doing this by way of exposure draft is so that people can have a good hard look at it and say, “This needs to be refined, this could be done better” and this is what a consultative and collegial government does: it puts something out, as far as is humanly possible it puts things out and says, “What do you think?” Obviously, what we’ve put out reflects our values and our aspirations and what we want, Justin, are jobseekers who are active, not passive. We want jobseekers who are out there actively looking for work, not simply sitting at home peering at a computer screen…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah, but I think the point they’re trying to make is for the business itself it will create red tape, something you yourself are keen on getting rid of and it will be more trouble than it’s worth.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, in previous times – I can’t speak with great confidence for the era of the previous government, but I can certainly speak with some confidence of the time of the Howard Government when I was the Employment Minister for quite a few years – there was a requirement for people on unemployment benefits to make contact with potential employers and in those days, all you had to do was call or knock on the door and make a diary entry and occasionally – occasionally, it’s true – a Centrelink officer or a Job Network officer would ring an employer and say, “So and so has indicated that he or she made contact with you in his or her search for a job.” Now, it wasn’t particularly burdensome. Yes, from time to time you’d have small business people say, “Oh, people are knocking on my door asking me for jobs” and, you know…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Ok, so what is your plan for this time around, Prime Minister? Will you push on with the 40 jobs a month plan? Is that going to continue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, let me ask you this question, Justin. If you were unemployed and you were on a benefit, you would want to make at least some step towards getting a job pretty much once a day, wouldn’t you?
JUSTIN SMITH:
I would. I would, but I guess…
PRIME MINISTER:
It’s not an unreasonable expectation or aspiration that we have now.
JUSTIN SMITH:
But I guess what’s unclear for the Small Business Council and they can speak for themselves, they don’t need me speaking for them, but it depends on what the person does. Is it 40 interviews a month, is it 40 phone calls, is it 40 emails or is it just 40, you know, entries into a diary? I think that’s still unclear, that’s their concern.
PRIME MINISTER:
And that is exactly the kind of thing that we’ll be talking to people about over the next few weeks before we crystallise things. As I said, under the former government – under the Howard government – it was effectively a diary entry which was occasionally audited by Centrelink and…
JUSTIN SMITH:
Alright…
PRIME MINISTER:
So we want to do two things. First of all, we want to ensure that people on unemployment benefits really are serious in looking for work, but we don’t want to unnecessarily burden small business.
On the other hand, given that so many people in small business say that it is hard to get staff, maybe it’s not a bad thing if sometimes someone comes in and knocks on the door and says “well if you’re looking for work, if you’re looking for staff, if you’re looking for a worker, I’m available”.
JUSTIN SMITH:
So the answer is I guess that it’s not set in concrete yet. You’ll still need to talk to a few. Will you talk to Peter Strong at the Small Business Council?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I may not personally speak with him, but certainly Luke Hartsuyker, who’s the relevant Minister, Eric Abetz, who’s the relevant Cabinet Minister, as part of the consultations that they’re having now, I’d be confident that they’d be giving Peter Strong and others in his position an opportunity to say their piece.
JUSTIN SMITH:
Prime Minister, I’ll let you get away. I do thank you for your time. There’s one thing, as a Sydneysider, as a Sydney lad, I do need to ask you about the new work of art that’s going to go up in George Street. Have you had the chance to look online at it yet?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I haven’t. I think there is a place for civic art and look, as a local member I’ve been responsible for putting a couple of statues into Manly. There’s a terrific statue of Sir Roden Cutler outside Manly Village Public School where he attended as a youngster. So, I’m in favour of public art. I’m in favour of civic art. Everyone has a different aesthetic of course and what appeals to some, doesn’t necessarily appeal to others!
JUSTIN SMITH:
Yeah, that’s the general feeling we’re getting, Prime Minister.
Thank you very much for your time. We’ll speak soon. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you so much.
[ends]