FRAN KELLY:
Prime Minister welcome to Insiders.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you Fran.
FRAN KELLY:
Prime Minister there are disturbing reports and pictures this morning of bodies being moved, even removed from the crash site, can you tell us who is moving them and where they’re going?
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, the difficulty is that the site is chaotic, it’s absolutely chaotic. It’s in the Russian-backed rebel held territory and yes, there’ve been at least two attempts now by investigators to get to the site but the first attempt was interrupted by gunfire, stopped by gunfire and I believe that the second attempt has also been significantly hampered. So, it is an absolutely chaotic site. The kinds of things that would normally be happening in an air crash site are simply not happening and this just makes it absolutely imperative, imperative that Australia does everything we can to recover the bodies, to ensure that the site is secured, a proper investigation is done and then justice is secured.
FRAN KELLY:
This chaos at the site as you describe it, is that accidental or is it planned? I mean yesterday I noticed you were concerned that there were attempts perhaps to, to use your words, to sanitise the site, is the moving of the bodies, for instance, is that interfering with a crime scene in your view or is it something else than that?
PRIME MINISTER:
What should happen is that the site should be secured for a proper and full investigation and plainly that has not happened and it’s because this has not happened that the usual difficulties and delays that will happen in a tragic situation like this are likely to be even greater in the current situation.
FRAN KELLY:
Well it’s outrageous really isn’t it….
PRIME MINISTER:
…of course it’s outrageous…
FRAN KELLY:
….that a scene like this is going to be so contaminated, there are reports of bodies being looted….
PRIME MINISTER:
Exactly Fran, look, we’ve all seen the reports, unfortunately there is no one in authority, in charge on the ground. It came down, the plane came down in a Russian-backed rebel controlled territory. No one is really in charge. The Ukrainians would like to take charge, that’s how it normally would be in a situation like this, the country which is sovereign over the territory where the plane came down would take charge, but that’s very difficult here because of the conflict between the Russian-backed rebels and the central government in Kiev.
FRAN KELLY:
So at this point the Ukrainian authorities are still not in charge of the site? It’s still in the hands of the separatists?
PRIME MINISTER:
Attempts to establish a proper crash investigation site, attempts to secure the site, attempts to properly recover the bodies are being fairly continually frustrated and hampered by the Russian-backed rebels.
I can report though that I did speak overnight to President Poroshenko of Ukraine and he has invited Australia to fully participate in the investigation, in all aspects of the investigation and to be part of the body recovery operation.
FRAN KELLY:
Sadly because of the tragedies Australians have been involved in in the past, we have quite a lot of expertise in this kind of forensic recovery and victim identification, do we have those teams already there in place?
PRIME MINISTER:
We have already a team in place in Kiev and we also have officers that are deploying to other parts of the world that might be relevant to this investigation.
FRAN KELLY:
Just, I hate to dwell on this, it’s an awful fact, but we are seeing the pictures of the bodies being removed in body bags, are you saying we don’t know who is doing that and where they’re going, those bodies?
PRIME MINISTER:
That’s correct Fran. The site is chaotic and the attempts by investigation teams, properly constituted investigation teams, expert investigation teams have been hampered and frustrated by the rebels in control of the site.
FRAN KELLY:
Australia, meanwhile, is working on a UN resolution which would endorse an independent international investigation, but in a sense is it already too late for that given the contamination that’s going on there, we don’t really know what’s going on, what’s been taken, what’s missing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes Fran, these are very legitimate anxieties that you have and this has been the fear from the word go, given the likely cause of the downing of the plane, but obviously the quicker and the more fully investigators have access to the site the more likely it is that we will find out precisely what happened and the more certain it is that the perpetrators will be brought to justice and while my first priority at the moment is the recovery of the bodies and the treatment of the dead with dignity, it is very important that we have a thorough investigation and it’s critical that those responsible for this heinous crime are brought to justice.
FRAN KELLY:
In terms of the treatment of the bodies, you said yesterday it would be weeks rather than days before the bodies of the dead are repatriated. Why will it take so long?
PRIME MINISTER:
The grim truth Fran is that not all of the bodies will be intact, I hate to say it. This is a horrible business and making sure that a proper identification process has taken place is a lengthy, lengthy process. We discovered this in Bali and I regret to say that it will be no less lengthy and difficult here.
FRAN KELLY:
Prime Minister this plane came down as you say in separatist held territory. It’s a long way from nowhere really, but you’d think that this kind of disrespect we’ve been talking about and this chaos could have been prevented if Russia had had the political will. It certainly has the political muscle in terms of the level of backing it gives these separatists doesn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, I very much appreciate what you’re saying and this is why yesterday I summonsed the Russian Trade Minister to a meeting and I made crystal clear my concerns and dissatisfaction with the way this has been handled. Russian controlled territory, Russian-backed rebels, quite likely a Russian supplied weapon, Russia can’t wash its hands of this.
FRAN KELLY:
Have you spoken to the President Vladimir Putin?
PRIME MINISTER:
So far, Julie Bishop has sought a call with the Foreign Minister of Russia and the Foreign Minister hasn’t been available. The only person who I have access to at this time, well the most senior person that I have access to at this time is the Trade Minister who was in Sydney yesterday for meetings connected with the G20 and he was left in no uncertain terms our concerns and our demands that Russia fully assist this inquiry.
FRAN KELLY:
Have you tried to talk to President Putin?
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m not going to go into conversations that may have been sought and that might be sought. The important thing Fran is that we get the bodies back so that they can be dealt with properly. The important thing is that we recover the bodies from the site and that a full investigation go on so that we can find out exactly what has happened and who is responsible.
FRAN KELLY:
And was one of your messages to the Russian Trade Minister to make sure this site is secured?
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely right. I mean at the moment….
FRAN KELLY:
Did you get any assurances?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the Russians, as everyone has seen over the last 48 hours, are trying to wash their hands of this but it is impossible for Russia to wash its hands of something which happened in what is effectively Russian controlled territory. It seems at the hands of Russian-backed individuals, most likely with a Russian supplied or facilitated weapon.
Now, my priority today Fran, and in coming days, will be ensuring that the bodies are properly treated and trying to secure a full investigation – that’s my priority. But obviously we have got Julie Bishop at the United Nations, she is there to lead our work at the United Nations, she’s there to give focus to our work at the United Nations so that the world knows just how seriously Australia is taking this and there are 36 people who call Australia home who have been snuffed out, snuffed out. This is a horrific, a horrific crime and we will do what we can to ensure that people are treated with respect but that justice is done.
FRAN KELLY:
Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. In your talks with the Trade Minister yesterday, did you get the indication that Russia will support the resolution that Australia is planning to move?
PRIME MINISTER:
My fear Fran, my fear is that Russia will say the right thing, but that on the ground interference with the site, interference with investigators, interference with the dignified treatment of bodies will continue, that’s my fear.
FRAN KELLY:
Well the fact that it’s continued this long, again, Russia could do something about that couldn’t they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, in part this is perhaps a function of the inevitably chaotic nature of contested territory, but there is no doubt that this ground is currently denied to the Ukrainian Government – which is the legitimate government of the area in question – this territory is currently denied to the Ukrainians and it shouldn’t be because the Ukrainian Government in Kiev is the legitimate government of this area.
FRAN KELLY:
Is the Ukrainian Government taking steps to try and talk to the separatists to secure some kind of truce around this site?
PRIME MINISTER:
I’ve now spoken twice to President Poroshenko. I first met President Poroshenko at the D-Day commemoration some weeks back. I think President Poroshenko is doing everything he can to do the right thing here but because of the situation on the ground it is very, very difficult.
FRAN KELLY:
So Prime Minister, what more can we do? Vladimir Putin, there’s been a lot of discussion about this, still on the guest list for the G20 which will be held in Queensland in November. I mean how do you think the loved ones of these people, who as you say are strewn in the fields of east Ukraine at the moment, would feel about him coming here? Is it time to pullback that invitation?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it is a time for full cooperation with the investigation.
FRAN KELLY:
But already we’re not seeing that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it’s not too late for changes of heart and we know that in other incidents where jetliners have been brought down by personnel associated with particular countries, that once what’s happened has been understood, there’ve been apologies, there’s been compensation, there’s been genuine, genuine remorse and regret – let’s hope that’s what we see.
FRAN KELLY:
Is that what you will need to see before Vladimir Putin will be welcome here?
PRIME MINISTER:
That’s what decency and that’s what humanity demands.
FRAN KELLY:
But at this point Russia is still invited to the G20?
PRIME MINISTER:
There are excuses, there is blame shifting, there is hand washing going on and that’s not acceptable, it’s simply not acceptable.
FRAN KELLY:
Prime Minister have you spoken to any of the family members of those killed in this crash?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not yet Fran, our consular officials, the teams from the Department of Foreign Affairs have made intensive contact with every family group. We are working with all of them to ensure that their situation is made as good as it can be under these awful circumstances and those teams have made clear to every family group that should they want a call from me or from Foreign Minister Julie Bishop we will call. I don’t want to intrude on people’s grief.
FRAN KELLY:
And you’re the Prime Minister of country, you’ve got high level negotiations to be done. I know overnight you’ve spoken again to the British Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of the Netherlands but as a Prime Minister of a country, how does a tragedy like this affect you at a personal level?
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, these are wrenching times. We can’t let our emotions cloud our judgment but nevertheless these are wrenching times and there would hardly be an Australian who hasn’t been emotionally touched by what we’ve seen, what we’ve felt over the last 48 hours or so. You look at the faces of the dead and they’re your neighbours, they’re your friends, they could be your kids because let’s face it, we are a people who like to travel and my own daughters flew on MH17 some months ago on their way home from Europe. So this is a tragedy which touches us deeply, that’s why it’s so important that we do resolve this matter and we do ensure that our skies are safe and that justice is done to protect the innocent and to preserve the ordinary rights of dignity of every human being.
FRAN KELLY:
Are you angry at the situation that we find ourselves in right this moment given as you say the chaos at this site and what is going on with the bodies of these people?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course I am Fran, of course I am, the important thing though is to work calmly, purposefully, methodically to ensure that those bodies are recovered, that they are treated properly, that the site is investigated, we uncover the causes and we punish the guilty.
FRAN KELLY:
In terms of uncovering the causes, is there any doubt in your mind that this plane was brought down by the rebel separatists in east Ukraine?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we have a very high degree of confidence that this is what has happened. Obviously on these matters I’ve been talking with our allies, with our intelligence and security partners and there is a very high degree of confidence that this plane was; a. brought down by a missile; b. brought down by a missile launched by Russian-backed rebels and c. slightly less confidence, but still likely, that it was a Russian supplied or facilitated weapon.
FRAN KELLY:
That intelligence, have we seen that Russia has provided those weapons?
PRIME MINISTER:
There is very, very strong evidence that sophisticated weaponry is moving across the border from Russia into Ukraine – sometimes it’s moving backwards and forwards across the border from Russia into Ukraine.
FRAN KELLY:
Back home Prime Minister I know you’re going to a service today but there is, you’ve spoken of the need for a commemorative service, when will that be?
PRIME MINISTER:
Probably in about a fortnight. Fran, what I would like to do is ensure that the families and next of kin of those who have died have had a chance to be properly consulted about what they would like. I think we need to give them a chance to I guess come to terms with what’s happened before we, as it were, put them into such an event. But nevertheless it is important that our nation honours the dead, respects the living and rededicates itself to our best values.
FRAN KELLY:
Tony Abbott, thank you very much for joining us on Insiders.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you Fran.
[ends]