RICHO:
Prime Minister, welcome to the programme.
PRIME MINISTER:
Richo, it is nice to be with you.
RICHO:
Good on you, thanks for your time. Can I just start by asking you about this dreadful Peter Greste situation in Egypt? Is there anything that we can really do because I understand both you and Julie Bishop have been to the highest sources in Egypt, as they say.
PRIME MINISTER:
I have spoken to the acting President a few weeks ago. I spoke to the new President over the weekend. I have put it to both of them that from what I can work out Peter Greste and his colleagues were simply doing their job. They were reporting on the Muslim Brotherhood, not supporting the Muslim Brotherhood. I think it is also important, Richo, to make it very clear that the Australian Government respects the legitimacy of the new government is Egypt. We respect the legitimacy of their judicial process. We understand their concerns about extremism including the Muslim Brotherhood but we are dismayed by this decision. We are shocked and surprised by it. We will continue to make representations at the highest possible level that Peter Greste and his colleagues should go free because in the end I think it would be good for Egypt to show that the new Government in Egypt is not frightened of free speech and free reporting.
ALAN JONES:
But PM, really, isn’t it true that they are virtually laughing at us? I mean you say these representations have been made. I see John Kerry has expressed his outrage but basically this man – on a three week mission last December – has been charged with aiding the black listed Muslim Brotherhood, spreading false news, having Brotherhood links and the prosecution wanted 15 years. Now, it is no use us being outraged about it, we have got to be able to demonstrate surely to the family that something active, and something persistent, and something that’s going to have a satisfactory outcome is going to be done. What is that something?
PRIME MINISTER:
But we have also got to remember that in the end we are appealing to the benevolence and the good nature of the Egyptian authorities and if we want to achieve something as opposed to actually just be outraged we have got to act in ways which are likely to get a reasonable response from the government and the people of Egypt. Now…
ALAN JONES:
But no reasons have been given here for; no reasons at all have been given for the seven years and the ten years that the others got. At the end of the day, shouldn’t we be making representations as you say to the President? Telling him that it is our understanding that these charges have no validity, that they were not supported in court by any evidence to validate the charges and now ask the Egyptian authorities what they intend to do now? What is the mechanism for repeal?
PRIME MINISTER:
My understanding Alan is that once the legal process is completed then the President is able to exercise clemency, the President is able to intervene at that stage. I did form the impression from my discussions with President al-Sisi on the weekend that this is someone that you can have a reasonable discussion with, this is someone who does get it when it comes to the ordinary norms of justice and decency. Certainly, I think he appreciates what Australia is doing to try to ensure that we get a reasonable security situation in the Middle East given all the terrible and legitimate concerns there are there. So, I don’t want to do anything which may be understandable and even right and proper according to our norms but which jeopardises our chances of getting Peter Greste and his colleagues out of jail.
RICHO:
Can we possibly involve say Barack Obama to talk to the Egyptians and the Saudis who actually pay the bills for Egypt? We have got to put as much pressure on as we can. Would someone like him be prepared to help do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
We will be talking to our friends and allies as to what is the best way forward here but in the end we want Peter Greste and his colleagues to be free because as we understand it - they were simply reporting, not supporting an extremist group so we want them to be free and we need to go forward in ways which maximise their chances of freedom and gratuitous attacks on the Egyptian Government I don’t think actually help. So, whatever we might think of the way this particular court has conducted itself, whatever we might think of the way the evidence has been dealt with on this particular occasion I think we do have to have faith ultimately in the decency and the good sense of people right around the world who surely want to see an outcome which reflects well on the Egyptian people, not badly.
ALAN JONES:
Just finally, what do you say to his mum and dad who are said to be exploring whatever legal options are available to them? And you know they can’t afford to be able to mount any kind of legal challenge; they just feel completely desperate, isolated and unable to look after their son as they would want to. What do you say to them?
PRIME MINISTER:
As a parent myself Alan obviously my heart goes out to Peter Greste’s parents – of course my heart goes out to them - but again our responsibility as a Government is to do what we reasonably can to get the right result. That’s what we have got to get – the right result – and I don’t believe that loose language or emotive language at the moment is necessarily going to get us the right result for Peter Greste, for his colleagues, for the ordinary norms of justice and decency and free speech that we support and ultimately the best outcome for the people and the government of Egypt as well.
RICHO:
Prime Minister, can I turn to Iraq? I think I am more terrified by what is happening in Iraq than anything that has happened in a long, long time because when you see those videos of slaughtered civilians and Australians standing proudly over them as if they have done something wonderful – it scares the hell out of me. Now, how do we stop these people coming back?
PRIME MINISTER:
Graham, I share your sense of foreboding about this. This is a dangerous and difficult development. It is a humanitarian catastrophe for the people of Northern Iraq. It is a security nightmare for the region and for the wider world. It is, as well, a witches’ brew of complexity and difficulty and no one should assume that there are easy or simple answers to the problems that we now have and will have for quite a long time to come I fear because of this terrorists army taking over large sections of Iraq and establishing or seeking to consolidate a terrorists state in large sections of Iraq. The responsibility of the Australian Government is to ensure the safety of our community and always the safety of our community has got to be our paramount concern.
Our determination is first, to try to ensure that none of these jihadists come back to Australia. Second, if any of them do come back to Australia to swiftly charge them, prosecute them and detain them because obviously people who have been radicalised and militarised are people who have been exposed to this gruesome al-Qaeda offshoot. This worse than al-Qaeda group are an absolute menace to the Australian community should they be here.
ALAN JONES:
Aren’t there two kinds of these people? One are the dual citizens who use that dual citizenship to go back to Iraq and Syria. Can’t you then automatically as a Government deny them dual citizenship? Take the Australian citizenship away from them immediately. Then you have got the other group who in fact are home-grown jihadists and it is argued that in Western Sydney up to 150 people from Western Sydney have gone over there. They were Australians – they were born and bred here. Is that a reflection on our overt commitment to quote, unquote “multiculturalism”? Is it a reflection on our intelligence system - that a bloke on a disability pension can get out of this country on his brother’s passport, suddenly throw his crutches away when he gets over there and becomes a fighter? And is it a reflection in our justice system that doesn’t deal adequately with these people who are here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan there is certainly a case for cancelling people’s passports and there may well be a case for cancelling some people’s citizenship but I don’t want anyone to think that this is solved just by dealing with passports or dealing with citizenship. The sad truth is that there are quite a number of people born in Australia – born in Australia – legitimately holding Australian passports who appear to have been radicalised and militarised by their association with this movement. Some indeed may have become radicalised here in Australia. What we need to do is take appropriate steps to protect our security, to enhance our intelligence and I suppose to reach out intelligently, sensitively and compassionately to all elements of the Australian family to try to ensure that no one in this country of ours feels like second class citizen purely on the basis of race, of ethnicity, of culture or religion.
ALAN JONES:
But Prime Minister, I mean that idealism is beautiful, but nonetheless there was an Australian jihadist speaking of the summary execution of a fellow Muslim and he said it “lifted the veil of depression” for a Muslim living in Australia. This bloke doesn’t even appreciate our values – he is depressed about it. Now, you can go out to Auburn and Granville today as the stories have indicated and you can buy all this gear. You can buy a T-shirt with two pistols on the front of it and the words, “submit to none but one” or another shirt which reads, “kill for my brothers.” Why should people watching you tonight be tolerant of that behaviour?
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, we should not be tolerant of criminal behaviour. We should not be tolerant of sick individuals who are a menace to our community. We should be highly intolerant of criminals. We should be highly intolerant of potential terrorist threats. What we shouldn’t do is conflate the actions of a few sick individuals with a whole community.
ALAN JONES:
But I don’t see any protests on these law-abiding, peace-loving Muslim community – apparently the majority of them. Surely they would be marching in the streets, wouldn’t they? Outraged at the bad name they are giving to their Muslim name and their Muslim brothers and sisters. I don’t hear any of these voices. Australians don’t hear these voices protesting against this behaviour.
PRIME MINISTER:
This is a fair point and I certainly think it would be helpful if there were more senior leaders of the Islamic community in Australia, more senior leaders of religious communities generally speaking out in favour of the sort of decency and fair mindedness which has always been a hallmark of our society and which frankly is why so many people from the four corners of the earth want to come here and live here.
RICHO:
One of the problems, Prime Minister, when you talk about the Muslim community there are Shia and there are Sunnis and that fight has been going on for 1,400 years and it is hard to imagine that you can call it a community. Look, I was wondering if you could hang on for one second because we will have to throw to a break. We will be back in just a moment with the Prime Minister.
***
Welcome back, the Prime Minister is in our Canberra studio. Actually he is in his Canberra office. Now, Prime Minister, I think I interrupted you. You were about to respond to something that I was saying about the Islamic Community in Australia.
PRIME MINISTER:
Richo, the problem is not any particular religion. The problem is extremism. The problem is not any particular group of individuals – the problem is criminal behaviour. It is terrorist behaviour. I am sickened along with, I am sure, every other Australian by the sort of images we have seen of individuals’ inhumanity in Iraq and Syria and elsewhere. Frankly we have to take the strongest possible action against that. Believe you me, this Government will not shriek from the strongest possible action to protect the Australian community. What we don’t want to do is to make any Australian feel merely by virtue of religion, culture, ethnicity, that a person is a stranger in his own country or a second class citizen in his own country. We don’t want that.
ALAN JONES:
I do want to get off this, just one final thing though and I made this point before PM. People watch people walking up the street and they have a T-Shirt on which says “kill for my brothers.” What the hell are they meant to make of this? They say, well our Government obviously cops this; no one sanctions these people, no one arrests them – it is all ok. I mean Australians can’t stand that.
PRIME MINISTER:
And Alan, look, I don’t think T-shirts like that should be worn. I think they are dangerous to social harmony and cohesion. Certainly that is the kind of thing that I would like to see looked at by the sorts of bodies which we have in our community to try to promote decency and harmony and toleration in our society.
RICHO:
Prime Minister, I appreciate that. Can I just turn to some domestic issues? I think we will need to do that at some stage. Now, with the Budget. You can’t just say groan it is pretty important to every Australian.
ALAN JONES:
You have worn everyone out talking about this. Go on. Here is your chance. Get into him. Go on.
RICHO:
I am a very calm and patient person. Now, obviously this Budget - you are saying that it is absolutely critical that you get it through. That Australia is in all sorts of strife down the track with debt – if not today. I am just wondering if you are only going to get a small percentage through and the more I read suggests to me that you might be lucky to get a quarter of your cuts through. Does that mean you would, absolutely would, have to go to a double dissolution? Because if it is that critical you couldn’t just let it go.
PRIME MINISTER:
Two points Richo, the first point is that we are determined to get the Budget through – that is the first point. We are determined to get the Budget through. The second point is I am confident that we will get it through. We may not get it through the first time or even the second time but I think we will get it through. You have seen in various governments that sometimes it does take a while to get parts of the Budget through both Houses of Parliament. We are determined to get this Budget through because while I absolutely accept, Graham, that there are some very tough elements in this Budget; it is absolutely necessary that we get the debt and deficit disaster that we inherited under control. This Budget does so. I mean a lot of people have been talking about fairness, well I tell you there is nothing fair in saddling our children and our grandchildren with tens of thousands of dollars in Commonwealth debt – per head – that they have to help repay. There is nothing fair about that. There is nothing fair about the $1 billion every single month that the Commonwealth taxpayers are paying in interest alone now just to pay for Labor’s borrowings.
ALAN JONES:
I agree with that even if Richo may not but if I could just come back to Richo’s very valid point. He is saying well what happens if it isn’t passed and I was just looking at some attitudes today and I understand that on the fuel excise increase there is none of the Palmer Party, Nick Xenophon, John Madigan. Leyonhjelm, Bob Day or Ricky Muir will support that, so unless you have got phenomenal powers of persuasion over them it is in trouble. On the GP co-payment the Palmer Party says no, Xenophon says no, two others unsure. So, on the figures as they now stand you are struggling. On the paid parental leave they are all saying no and on the direct action on climate change they are all saying no. Now, you are talking to, I understand, Clive Palmer at some stage this week. Are you convinced that you can persuade nos to become yeses?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, in some cases yeses will become nos and if yeses can become nos – nos can become yeses. People can change their minds. The point I will be making to everyone, the Labor Party included - because you have left them out of that analysis, Alan. The point I will be making to everyone is; what is their plan to tackle Labor’s debt and deficit disaster? We have come up with our plan; I think it is a good plan, a fair plan. I think it is a doable plan and in the absence of any suggestions from anyone else – it is the only plan. The one thing that ought to be crystal clear is that we just cannot continue to go on as we did go on under the six years of the former government.
RICHO:
Well, Prime Minister whether this is a good plan or not, I think you would have to concede that people got pretty angry after the Budget. I think the main reason for that was the way you and Joe Hockey had that sophistry going for a week or so about how you really hadn’t broken any promises when absolutely everybody thought you had. Do you regret that? Shouldn’t you have just said what you have said to us now? Shouldn’t you have just come out and said, “look, I know we said we would do this, we can’t do that now, we have had to change our mind because of the seriousness of the situation and here it is.” Don’t you regret that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I am not going to play word games with people Richo, I am not…
RICHO:
Well, you did though. That’s the problem.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, look, we said that we would tackle the debt and deficit disaster. We said we would get the Budget back under control. We never said it would be easy and the point about this Budget is that it is tough – sure, difficult – sure, but it is the right Budget for these times and that is the point that I will be making from this day until we secure all of this -that we had to tackle the debt and deficit disaster. That is what we were elected to do. It was never going to be easy. This is the plan we have put forward.
ALAN JONES:
Can I just ask you something that is absolutely mundane, which I cannot understand relating to you and to your predecessors? There are people out there watching you now who have been asked to be the godfather to a child, whether it is an uncle or whatever and they think the nicest thing they can do for the godchild is to put $5,000 in little Billy Abbott’s account. From the day he was born - $5,000. Now, Billy Abbott is one day old and so that account is not touched. What right does any government have to put their hands on that money? Under the Gillard Government after three years, under the Howard Government after seven and then to justify doing it saying, “oh well the account might have been forgotten or lost and we have got to retrieve it.” Why don’t you say, as Tony Abbott, this is not our business to be touching people’s money? Gillard has pulled $360 million out of money that doesn’t belong to her. Should you say, knowing Tony Abbott as I do, this is not our business? If we put money in Billy Abbott’s account the Government has no right to put its hands on it ever.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, I agree with your sentiments and we ferociously opposed this when the former government put it up but we cannot fix every disaster created by the former government instantly. This is one of those things that we do want to change, we do want to fix. We can’t fix it just yet but we will fix it in time.
ALAN JONES:
Sorry Tony, Mathias Cormann says we don’t agree with three – he was on the programme the other day – we don’t agree with three but after seven yes, after seven we will take the money. Wouldn’t you just say leave the money alone. If Billy Abbott loses his dough in bank charges so be it for little Billy Abbott but it is not the business of government.
PRIME MINISTER:
The Howard Government had a seven year rule and that was something that obviously I was prepared to tolerate some time ago and I am certainly prepared to give you the commitment Alan that as soon as we can, we will change the three year rule. If I could just take your metaphor, what the former Government has done to little Billy Abbott is not put $5,000 in his bank account he has given him $25,000 worth of debt. That is what the former Government did to every single Australian. It saddled them with accumulative $25,000 worth of Commonwealth debt per man, woman and child and that is why we have to do tough things in this Budget to restore the fiscal situation.
RICHO:
Prime Minister, we have got to wrap this up so I will just ask you one last question. Given your last answer, why do you bat on with the paid parental leave? You have got to save all this money. You are spending billions on it and the reality is one baby gets $50,000 and another one gets $30,000. If I make $60,000 a year I can’t handle the fact that someone is getting $50,000 – almost my entire wage – to have a baby. I mean you must understand how unfair that looks?
PRIME MINISTER:
But Richo, it is not about the baby – it is about the parent. If the parent is earning $50,000, the parental leave should be at $50,000. If the parent is earning $70,000, the parental leave should be at $70,000 just as their holiday pay, their sick pay and their long service leave is at their pay. The unfairness at the moment is that right now public servants get paid parental leave at their wage and most of the employees of small and medium size businesses in our suburbs, in our regions, in our country towns - they don’t. I just want the same fairness which is currently extended to public servants to extend to the whole community.
ALAN JONES:
PM, who am I to argue with a prime ministerial Rhodes Scholar but that is the first time I have heard that point being made. I mean the hypocrisy sickens me. You sit in the Parliament opposite Tanya Plibersek. She had a baby while she was in Parliament. She is entitled to 52 weeks of maternity leave. She is entitled to full pay for 14 weeks which I calibrate at almost $50,000 – full pay and most public services around Australia have exactly the same scheme. So, if Richo wants you to abolish paid parental leave would you introduce legislation therefore to have, in the interests of equity, the public servants go without as well? I am wondering if that is what Richo wants,
RICHO:
I wouldn’t mind public servants going with less because I think that is way over done. I am about fairness and I don’t see much here.
ALAN JONES:
Well, your public service mates are getting and you are saying he can’t give it to others?
RICHO:
Who are my public service mates? They are the public servants of Australia.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don’t mind listen to you guys argue I have got to say.
ALAN JONES:
Final point Tony, the comment about the public service, if they are going to then force you to back off on paid parental leave – that is the Senate doesn’t support it – does that mean that the public service continues to enjoy a largesse which the Senate is denying you the opportunity to provide to others?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, this is a fair point, Alan. I assume that if the Labor Party persists in trying to vote down our paid parental leave scheme they will subsequently introduce legislation on their part to take away the existing paid parental leave for public servants, because that would be a fair principle. Now, I have to say that the Commonwealth Public Sector Union would be in uproar about this, as indeed would many other unions around the country that are constantly arguing for paid parental leave at peoples’ wages. Now, if it is the employer who pays it for small and medium size businesses at least that is going to be an incentive not to employ women under 40 and I don’t think that is a good thing. That is why we have got to do it the way I am proposing it – not the way that has been done traditionally in other areas.
RICHO:
Prime Minister, I am going to let you go. In my ear they have been telling for the last ten minutes to let you go. Thank you very much for your time. I know we have overstayed our welcome but I appreciate it very much.
ALAN JONES:
Thank you PM.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan and Richo. Thank you so much.
RICHO:
Good on you. Tony Abbott in Canberra.
[ends]