Subjects: Government’s statement on welfare reform; President-elect Bush.
O'BRIEN:
And I'm joined now to explore those issues further by PM John Howard in our Canberra studio. John Howard, the welfare industry has welcomed the thrust of your reforms, but universally it seems they're saying it's not good enough that you've extended the principles of mutual obligation to welfare recipients without meeting your own obligation up front to spell out your side of the bargain, the issue of funding?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Kerry, we haven't done that. What we did today was to announce the things that we were going to implement. We didn't announce the date of implementation of them and we said that having decided to do these things we'd then consult the welfare sector about the detail of their implementation and then announce a timetable and the money in next year's Budget. The criticism that you've just reported would have been fair criticism if Jocelyn Newman had of said "As from January 1 next year, these new conditions will operate -- " and we hadn't made any announcement about the money. I mean, that's a perfectly fair criticism. But this is a three-stage process. We announce our broad response, which was done today, we set out the things that we're in favour of, we then establish a consultative group with the sector to work out the detail and in the Budget next year we announce the dollars and cents and the timetable of the implementation of these particular measures. And look -- can I just make it very clear, this is not a cost-cutting exercise. We will be making additional money available in next year's Budget. We're not going to cherry-pick. I'm not in favour of using welfare reform as a way of knocking down people's benefits and the whole exercise is about taking people away from welfare dependency and helping them re-enter the workforce.
I saw the cameo of Anna was it? Well, on the assumption of that little girl in the picture was her child, the little girl is plainly under six. The things we have in mind won't affect Anna while that little girl is under the age of six. We're not in the business of telling people how to be parents, but we are in the business though of trying to help people get off welfare dependency. So I want to put people's minds at rest over that.
O'BRIEN:
Senator Newman herself raised the expectation when she announced, when released The McClure Report back in August that she expected to be able to give the Government's response by the end of this year. There was a wide expectation that would be a complete response. It has been widely reported that there has been dissent within Cabinet about how much money the Government is prepared to commit and about some of the elements of the report, to the extent of speculation that Senator Newman's widely expected retirement announcement has been delayed so she can continue the fight. Is that all nonsense?
PRIME MINISTER:
Most of it, yes. Most of it is complete nonsense. To start with, there is no division within the Government about our approach to welfare reform. We all support welfare reform in line with the McClure recommendations.
O'BRIEN:
It's the extent of the money, I guess, that's the question?
PRIME MINISTER:
At this stage, there's really no argument about the question of money. There's an agreement within the Cabinet that the timetabling and the amount of money will be announced in the Budget. But we have set up a very logical process and Senator Newman announced today that the Government's response to the various recommendations made by McClure. She announced the membership of a group, of a committee, which includes people from the welfare sector, led by somebody from the Smith Family, and we'll be talking to them over the weeks and months ahead and then in the Budget, implementation of social welfare reform will be amongst the highest priorities. And there will be additional money made available in the Budget next May and we will be laying out a timetable, but welfare reform, Kerry, is a very long process. I mean one of the reforms is to try and consolidate all the payments into a single payment. That will take years to achieve. You know how complicated the existing payment structure is and we're not going to use that, incidentally, as a way of reducing people's benefits. We're trying to use it as a way of streamlining and consolidating the system.
O'BRIEN:
But the Government basked in the credibility of Patrick McClure and the credibility he bought with his report, the way the welfare community broadly accepted the principles that -- and the recommendations that were made. But Mr McClure says today there should be an immediate commitment of $1 billion as a demonstration from the Government that you are going to meet your obligation. Senator Newman herself says she's been considering this for 15 months, you've had the McClure Report for four months.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we've had the McClure Report for four months and today we indicate those parts of it we're going to accept, very clearly, we've made that very plain. We establish a consultative process with the welfare sector and in May of next year, which is only, what? Six months from now, we announce timetables and money. Now you can't handle anything more sensibly or logically than that. You're not dealing here with road funding, you're dealing here with people and we want to make absolutely certain the details of implementation are right.
PRIME MINISTER:
But that's exactly the point that ACOSS raises, they say . . .That is why, Kerry, we're going to talk to people about implementation of the decisions we've taken. I mean you can't be fairer --
O’BRIEN:
You've had lots of consultation! You've had heaps of consultation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, hang on, hang on. It's only four months since we got the McClure Report. That's pretty good. That is very rapid. That's not slow. You're dealing here with something that affects people's lives.
O’BRIEN:
You took the defence issue, which is a complex issue and you've committed billions and billions and billions of dollars to defence well out from your Budget.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but Kerry, it's not a question of whether it's well out from the Budget or in the Budget, it's a question of getting the process right. Now in relation to defence and I'm glad you raised it as an analogy, we had a public consultation process, remember, chaired by Andrew Peacock and it was only after that had been completed that we then made all the final announcements. And we'd been talking about a defence . . .
O'BRIEN:
But that was a shorter process than the one that's gone on in welfare reform.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, we've been talking about a defence white paper for two years. Look, let's not have an argument where there's no difficulty. We are going to announce the dollars in the Budget so nobody should be concerned about it.
O'BRIEN:
Let's move on. Mr McClure's statement from Mission Australia acknowledges a lot of positives in these reforms, as I guess they should, because they're based on his recommendations. But he also lists 20 negatives. So do you acknowledge that this is a highly qualified acceptance up to this point?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I haven't read everything that he said and I haven't read every one of those 20 negatives. I think in the end he will like very much what is announced in the Budget. I can assure him and I can assure everybody else involved in this process that this is not a cost-cutting exercise. There is not a furious debate inside the Government between the softliners and hardliners. There are no hardliners when it comes to the vulnerable and the poor in the Australian community.
O'BRIEN:
Well let me go to that point, the question of hardliners. Okay. You know that there is widespread concern expressed from welfare agencies and you heard Mr McClure again today that the penalties the Government imposed under its mutual obligation category are far too harsh in many cases. ACOSS said today those penalties should be reduced. Do you have any sympathy for that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I always have sympathy for those views. On the other hand to make a system of benefits and eligibility criteria work you do need to have some penalties and in some areas the breaching penalties we have are less severe than those that operated under the former Labor Government where people were totally knocked off benefits if they didn't comply with certain stipulations, as distinct from merely having their benefits reduced.
O'BRIEN:
And yet the welfare industry, the welfare agencies, say that the situation is far worse today?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't think that is justified given what I've just said.
O'BRIEN:
Can we move on to the international front Mr Howard?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah.
O'BRIEN:
How would you expect the George W Bush presidency to impact on Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it'll be very good for Australia. When it comes to trade matters, I would expect a Republican administration, led by Governor Bush, to be better for Australia, than a Democrat administration. Although the margin of difference may not be all that great.
O'BRIEN:
You're referring to the hope that it might be less protectionist?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I am. I think it will be less beholden to the union movement in America, less beholden to the environmental push. I think a Bush administration will be marginally more interested in our part of the world and I think that's an important consideration and they will take a broader interest in the Asia Pacific. It tended to be an Atlantic focus in the attitude of the Clinton administration. I congratulate George Bush on his win. I know many of the senior people or likely senior people in his administration very well, such as the Vice-President and the likely Secretary of State Colin Powell, and there'll be very close relations between the new administration and my Government and I think he'll be a very good president.
O'BRIEN:
On our own election front, is there any circumstance in which you would consider calling an election in the first half of next year?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's a difficult question, Kerry. I can only answer it by saying I have no intention at present of doing other than serving out my full term. I like being in Government. I agreed with Paul Keating on one thing, and that is you work very hard to get elected as PM and they've got to be pretty compelling reasons to go earlier than your appointed time.
O’BRIEN:
Nonetheless, I think you've just left it wide open?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Kerry, you can never rule anything out absolutely, but my strong disposition, very strong disposition, is to run the full-term. I don't think the Australian public wants early elections. I have a very strong disposition to run the full-term.
O'BRIEN:
John Howard, thanks for talking with us.
PRIME MINISTER:
Pleasure.
[ends]