EMBARGO: 7. 30p. mn. Mond ,_ 28_ September 1970
" THIS DAY TONIGHT"
Television interview given by the Prime
Minister, Mr. John Gorton on ABC TV Network 28 SEPTEMBER ! 970
Lnterviewer Gerald Stone
Q. Mr. Gorton, I'm sure you'll agree that there is considerable difference
between legitimate criticism of a political opponent and attempts to smear him
through exaggeration arid innuendo. In that light, I wonder how you would
describe your Government's recent attacks on Mr Whitlam?
PM Well I understand Mr Whitlam claims that he has been smeared, and if
that is ao, it is the first occasion on which I can ever remember when a man
has put out a statement in his own name and then claimed that that statement
srr ars him.
Q. We'll get back to that statement in a second. What was the purpoce of the
allegation that Mr Whitlam in addressing the September 19 Moratorium stood
under a Viet Cong flag7
PM He stood facing a crowd in which a number of flags were flying Viet
Cong flags, other flags associated with the Viet Cong, a defaced Australian flag
and Australian flags as well and that was seen, of course, by scores of people
from Parliament House. There can be no question but that that was in fact so.
Q. But you would agree there is an emotive difference at least between standi: g
somewhere in the proximity of a Viet Cong flag in a large group and standing u:-cer
a Viet Cong flag?
PM I think there is a difference between standing holding a banner or having it
directly over your head as you speak, but on the other hand, I don't think itmyoelf,
very different from addressing a mob, a crowd I don't use the word " mob" in a
derogatory way from addressing a crowd flying Viet Cong flags when one's own
troops are engaged in action against troops fighting under those flags.
Q. Well can I ask you was the purpose of making this statement " under a 21ag"
was it to identify Mr Whitlam with the most irresponsible elements in tie anti-
Vietnam campaign?
PM It was to make a perfectly straightforward statement that he was prepared
to go and talk to these people who were flying the flags of our enemies. But that
is not an issue of significance compared to the call for soldiers to disobey orders
which he has made in his statement that you were going to come back to. e ; 2
Q. Right. Again we will come bac.,. to it, but just one last point on this. Is it
a fact that you requested the Australian News and Information Bureau to cover that
Moratorium Rally with the express purpose of trying to get a picture of Mr Whitlam
in relation to a Viet Gong flag?
PM No, I asked the Australian News and Information Bureau or sent a messae
to them to cover the Moratorium because after all there are a lot of pictures tak-en
from a lot of different sources at these kinds of gatherings and they tend to be
brought forward later as evidence of police brutality or something of that kind, and
I think it's not a bad thing to have official records of what in fact goes on. at thema.
Q. Well then you consider News and Information Bureau to be a fit source to be
taking this type of picture,'
PM Yes, certainly.
Q. Now, on this question of Mr Whitlam's statement about the Army. You have
said he has made a call to mutiny. Mr McEwen used the word " treachery" in
describing this action. If you really believe that, do you think Mr Whitla-i is a -fit
person to sit in Federal Parliament?
PM This is what makes it so significant, I think, so nationally significant that am
man with a responsibility, the responsible post of Leader of the Opposition, Should
call he doesn't like the word " mutiny" that he should advise young men to ' Cin
the Army and disobey the orders to go to Vietnam. He claims that's not mutiny,
He can argue that out with the dictionary, but I think a dictionary definition will
indicate that it could be covered by that. For myself, over the weekend, I am
quite happy if he doesn't like that word to just Cay that it is just as bad to
give advice to young men to join the Army and then to disobey orders.
Q. Would you agree there is a difference, though? You have been using the
word " call and urge young men to violate orders". Mr Whitlam insists he did not
say he urges anybody to violate orders. He simply says if they feel they must in
some way avoid service in Vietnam, the best way, if they don't qualify as
conscientious objectors is to join the Army and to refuse orders to serve in
Vietnam.
PM He advises them. They are his own words. He advises them to join the
Army and then to disobey orders--. And if you read the transcript of his press
statement, he makes it perfectly, explicitly clear in the sentence and I quote
from memory but I thin".. it's accurate " if they get the order to go, when they
do, they should disobey". Well, I'm sorry, what's your pointt That, surely,
is saying what should halopen. 0 3
3.
Q. But there is a difference between urging somebody to do something and simply
telling them that. if -he feels he must violate orders that perhaps that's the way
he should do
PM I think yu are drawing a sort of hairline aren't you here? Here is a Leader
of the Opposition, a young man going to him and saying, " I don't mind bearing
arms but I don't want to fight in Vietnam" and he says to that young man, " All
right. You don't mind bearing arms, then join the CMF and you won't have to go
to Vietnam". But he doesn't say that.
Q. Well, I want to raise this question of the CMF, You said if a young man : rally
wanted to avoid service in Vietnam, he could join the CMF. Now isn't this being
rather destructive to the CMF, to load it up with young men who in time of war
might not want to serve overseas?
PM You are talking about time of war. I am talking about a young man who
would be a National Serviceman and who could be called up and who could be
se.. t to Vietnam and who feels he has a genuine conscientious objection to going
to Vietnam. In that case, he has the full opportunity of taking a legal course o;
joining the CMF and not being subject to that liability. Now surely that would
be the advice to give and where the advice should stop.
Q. But if we are to treat the CMF as a serious organisation......
PM Now you are trying to talk about the CMF, I'm afraid, instead of the real
central point the advice g; ven was to join the Army and then to refuse to obey
orders, and the results of that can only these can be the only results that
you would make it impossible for an Army containing an element of National
Servicemen to be able to be used. People could say " I don't want to go to
Vietnam". Other people could say, " I don't want to go to Malaysia". You
wouldn't know where you were. It lays the young man himself open to very
serious penalties and it is an advice, advice to disobey the law when the young
man can obtain the objectives without disobeying the law.
Q. Now you say this would make National Service unworkable, and yet
Mr Snedden and the Government has said only a very minute fraction of young
men eligible for call-up have tried to evade call-up. So how many men do you
think would actually try to refuse.....
PM CK. Net very many because 99 per cent or 99. 8 per cent, I think it is,
of young mt go into the Army when they are called up and accept their obligations.
But if this advice that is offered by the Leader of the Cpposition, which he says
hundreds of young men would want to take, if this advice is to be offered by him
and accepted by an increasing number of young men, then this would be the end
result.
Q. Mr. Gorton-I -thipk you have acknowledged in the past that the anti-war
movement, in this country has many moderate and responsible followerc. Nov'
isn't there a danger that by making extreme or distorted remarks about come
of these moderate followers that you might tend to drive them to an extreme
position and tend to further develop splits in the country......
PM I haven't made any extreme or immoderate remarks about the moderate
elements nor about thos e who are anti-war, nor about those who seek by legal
methods to change the law as it stands. I am concerned only with the man in
the position of the Leader of the Opposition urging that the law as it stands, after
an election in which National Service and continuation in Vietnam were key
points, that a man in the position of the Leader of the Cpposition after that
should advise a breach of the law.
Q. Well, finally, and after all is said and done, Mr Gorton, do you consider
S" r Whitlam to be a loyal patriotic Australian with the good of his country at
heart?
PM I think that the advice that he is giving to young men and according
to his own statement not mine is unpatriotic.
Q. Thank you, Mr Gorton.