MBARGO: 10 p. M. Sunday 27--pemberl197O
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" THIS WEEK" PROGRAMME_
TV ITERVIEW GIVEN BY THE PRIME MINISTER
MR J1O H qG~ OLRT?
Interviewer: John Boland
Recorded on Saturday236 September for screening on Sunday 27 Sjptmr .1970
Q. Prime Minister, the last time that I spoke to you on " This Weec, Labor
looked to be a lot more formidable. You appear since then to have toughened ywur
own mind more away from a liberal ideologicai attitude which you were thought to
have in view of the Prime Ministers we have had in the past. Sir Robert Menzies
was more or less a hard-line Liberal and Mr Holt virtually followed on in the
same sort of pattern. But you cut defence spending and you gave Billy Wentworth
carte blanche on social services and things like this. But now all of a sudden, you
have really got down to hard politics almost as though, " Well, I'm Prime Minister
and I am going to get stuck into being Prime Minister and this is going to be hard
politics from here on in. Now I mention this because two big issues have
occurred within recent weeks :-The law and order legislation and of course the
very hard ine and the way in which you have grappled with Mr Whitlam this
week over his statement on the Vietnam issue, particularly in relation to
conscripts not wanting to go to Vietnam and what they should do about it.
PM You mean telling them to disobey orders?
Q. Yes. Now is this a pretty fair assessment df a change in John Grey
Gorton?
PM I don't think it is at all. In fact I can't see any evidence of moving
away from a liberal ( with a small attitude. Perhaps you would explain
why you think there was?
Q. Well, those two points alone.....
PM All right. Let's take those two points. One question you called law
and order. My approach to that is this, that people have a right to dissent,
people have a right to criticise, people have a right to object to what a governnrent
is doing and to try and change it or to make a government do something else and
they have a right to congregate for that purpose. There Is no question of that.
In fact I believe that that kind of right of dissent is the sort of right which
Liberals, more than anybody else, would want to sustain and wo uld fight to
sustain. There is no question of that. But we also believe that there are civil
rights for the majority of people in Australia, and that those civil rights should
not be infringed by demonstrators preventing the majority from using the
streets if they want to use them, or intimidating individuals amongst them-1, or
in any other way violating the civil rights. /' 2
2.
Q. Is this law. and -order legisLitton that you have in mind, is it pretty
tough and a little undemocratic in certain areas?
PM
Q. Do we need this in Australia that's the point I'm getting at'!
PM Well let's examine whether we think we need it or not. First of all,
of course, the Commonwealth's writ in relation to the making and enforcement
of laws does not run in most of the areas tn the States. But we had a situation
arising where small numbers of people would go into a National Service Office
and tear up the records, pour ox blood on the floor, terrorise the public Servants
working there. We had a time when a group of people walked into Mr Snedden,)
office and lccked the door and sat there and abused him and played the camera
on him so that if he answered them at all, they could say that he was abu.-ing them.
We had instances of stink bombs being let off in post offices which people have
a right to use. I think we do need to have sufficient penalties for that kin~ d of action
to make that kind of action really punishable.
Q. Now you want this punishable under Com--monwealth law rather than
under State laws. Don't you feel that our laws which e xist at the moment are
strong enough?
PM No, I don't because I think you will find that people doing this k-ind of
thing could be had up perhaps for trespass, possibly for trespass, under
State law, possibly fined perhaps $ 2 or $ 3 for obstructing the footpath
or for invading somebody's house. I don't think that is suff icient. Now, of course,
we can only apply laws to our own Commonwealth property or in the A. C. T. or
the Northern Territory.
Q. Well fair enough. Now what do you think should be a more stringent
policy. Yoi are looking at bigger fines? Or do you feel they ought to be shoved
in clink for a couple of days for deing this sort of thing? or what"'
PM Well let's just say there should be, I believe, after conviction
accordingjto law, and only after conviction according to law, of course, there
_ Should be geater penalties for those kinds of actions which I have just
described.
Q. Now the other very intere. sting thing is the trapping of Mr Whitlam
this week into the mutiny by conscientious objectors to Vietnam. This is
something which has created a tremendous impact on the Australian scene. Labor
looked to be at perhaps its most formidable best, particularly after cleaning
up Victoria
PM Well. I'll discuss that separately with
PM I enter a-cayeat-onithat:'
Q. The point I want to make here is just how mony votes do you thnk there
is in Vietnam now in Australia? What sort of an issue is. Vietnam, as far as
getting votes is concerned now?
PM I don't think I could make-an esti mate which would be worth very
much. Ilam sure that most people would wish that the war in Vietnam were
finished. Ther is no question of that. But I am also sure that very large numbers
of people feel that we were right to go there and we should stay until the
invaders have been beaten, that is, made to withdraw. But however much of an
issue that is, I don't know but this isn't really the issue that arose...
Q. No, the mutiny issue.....
PM Yes, the offering of advice to young men to go into the Army arid then
to refuse to obey orders. That's the issue that is really significant.
Q. Do you feel that this whole Vietnam question you've got
conscientious objectors, you yourself say, " Yes, Australia is a country which
should have the right to dissent". I think that most Australians would agree
with you on this mutiny aspect, but are there enough areas if someone doesn't
want to go and fight in Vietnam? Now the gaoling of Brian Ross has created a
tremendous impact on the Australian scene. Is that too harsh a thing',
PM No, look, there are these opportunities for people who either diSlike
bearing arms at all or dislike a particular theatre of war. Let's take the
people who dislike bearing arms, who have conscientious objections to going to
war at all in any circumstances. Now provision to is made for them to claim
these conscientious objections, to go before a court, to have them investigated
and if they are upheld, then those people are excused from all service arid their
conscientious beliefs are respected. Then you have another group of people
and these are the people Mr Whitlam is talkbngabout, who do not have
conscientious objections to bearing arms, who do not have conscientious objections
to war, but who are worried about going to in this case Vietnam. In another
case, it might be some other theatre. They are worried about going to some
particular theatre, they don't want to go there. Now they haven't got to do
that either because if they feel that that is likely to happen, then provision is
made for them to join the CMF, in which case, they are exempt from call-up.
And that is a proper and legal way for a young man who is prepared to bear arms
but doesn't want to go to a particular area to see that he dcesn't go to that
particular area. But when you go beyond that and say that in spite of the fact
that you have got this legal way of avoiding this service, I advise you to join
the Army and to refuse to obey an order to go to a particular place, that is
saying to a young man, " Although you have a legal redress, I advise you to take
an illegal method which will land you in a lot of trouble.
-Q N x ñ, Vqssues look to me-like election issues, with a
Senato. eleS. tion. comlng up. Now November 29 has been nominated. Are you still
very keen S ould I say November 29 has been speculated upon.....
PM I rather think November 29 is a Sunday, but....
Q. Well it might be 28, Prime Minister,...... I think you might be right:
Anyhow, in that area. Are we pretty close to the mark here? You know, these
are two good big election issues and you have got to have a Senate election.
PM We have got to have a Senate election, yes.
Q. Well
PM Aad we will be having a Senate election this year.
Q. So it is in November some time?
PM Well you said that, I didn't.
Q. Well we are going to have one this year and that we know. Now this
raises anozher interesting thing because last week the Labor Party appeared to
clear up their problems in Victoria. In other words, they placed a 12-man
Executive and sacked the entire Labor organisation in Victoria. The DL?
said that if you can sack the Victorian Executive, in fact Senator McMarius, I
think it was, held out an olive branch and said " Well, we might be able to
talk turkey", and their State Aid policy became general once they had decided,
right, the Victorian Branch goes and they are replaced by this 12-man Executive
until such time as we fix the whole thing up, and State Aid is right, and this
Trade Union Defence Council is out. These are the two big DLP problems. Now
the DLP has sort of been like a monkey on your back because they have knocked
you around on this States Tax Receipts thing
PM I wouldn't say they've been like a monkey on our back. In many, many
fields we have precisely the same beliefs. We believe, both believe that ustralia
needs proper defence forces. The DLP goes further than we do. But we both are
in line on many foreign affairs and defence policies.
Q. But do you think there is an endeavour here would you like, for
instance, to have a straight-out fight with Labor in the Senate election, rather
than be worrying whether the DLP are going to win, because there is not a great
deal of difference now between their policies?
PM Between the DLP and the Labor Party policies?
Q. Well, if, o 0 4
PM I draw youattention nu to my reriarks, I'm not going to speak
for the-DLU-. butto-some of the remarks that Senator Gair made yesterday,
for example,_ on this latest call for mutiny.
Q. Yes, I agree....
PM Mutiny, incidentally, mans two people or more, I understand. Let's
say the call for soldiers to disobey orders.
Q. But he won't play ball with you on you're in trouble on
this one, rren't you?
PM On?
Q. On collecting the Receipts Tax for the States?
PM Well we will have to see what happens, won't we?
Q. Do you think you can get them on side, or do you think if you call a
Senate election on these issues, that the DLP could lose eut because they are
not so far behind or they are not so far in front of Labor policy now in many
respects, except on defence as you just mentioned.
PM I think there is more similarity between Liberal policies and DLP
policies than there is between Labor policies. And after all, we are talking as
if the Labor Party branches were all cleaned up and they weren't af-fected, any
of them, in the way that the Victorian Executive was affected.. Now the
Victorian Labor Party Executive has been defended in the past by Mr Whtlam.
When we said it was run by faceless men, that it was undemocratic, we didn't
get agreement. But now he calls it something which has been an authoritarian
and undemocratic junta, as undoubtedly it has been. But we don't know what is
going to go in place of it yet. Certainly there is a 12-man committee that has been
put up to suggest new rules, but a number of those people en that Committee are
from the old undemocratic junta, so described, and I notice, for example, that
the man leading their Senate team, Senator Brown, was one of the strong Left-
Wing supporters of this undemocratic, authoritarian junta. Now let's wait and
see what does come up. I think, you will remember at the
Q. You sound almost as though you are pleased that Senator Brown is
leading the Victorian Labor Senate team.
PM Well, I think it is a pretty clear indication oi what is likely to be an
attempted facelift rather than a change. I don't know this field as well, for
example, as a suppoorter of the DLP, Mr Santamaria does, but I notice he came
out saying that all that happened was they had stcpped being Maoist communist
controlled in the Victorian Executive and are now controlled by Moscow
communists. This was an article in the " Herald". But I don't know the details
of this, the ins and outs of this, but after all, that came into my mind because
you were saying about the DLP and ,6
Q. Well,. the reasonLhrng-thi up.. is you have now said, " Right the
Senate.-electun will be this year" and I am tipping November, and so are a lot
of other journalists. There is nothing unique in miy saying this. The situation
now arises that there are a lot of Labor voters I mean the Labor Deience
policy itself, other than Mr Whitlam' s recent statements which have become
quite a political thing looking at it in cold hard politics, the Goverimient
have trapped him beautifully, haven't they? Let's be political about this.
PM Look, we didn't set nut to trap him at all. We didn't lecad him to say
this. He just came out and said this was what he was doing for some reason
that I don't know. We found out, in fact, by accident the sort of advice he was
giving and the sort of approach he was taking. In one sense, yes this, i think,
must be very -politically damaging to him, and certainly it would prevent the use
of armed forces containing National Servicemen. Somebody could say, " I don't
want to go to Vietnam", somebody else could say, " I don't want to go to Malaysia"
and the whole thing breaks down. But nevertheless., believe it or not, I a-m rather
strry that it has happened because I think it is a very grave thing for a leader
of a political party of the size of the Labor Party to give this kind of advice and
to take this kind df an approach. I think it is something that I don't believe
could happen in any other democratic country.
Q. You would like to be out of Vietnam. I think the Americans would like
to be out of Vietnam. I think that goes without saying. Is there any chance
that before the Senate election, that you could announce further Australianr
troop withdrawals',,
OM The first battalion to come back that we have already announced is due
back some time in November, as I understand, but any future action would be
purely speculative and would depend upon the success of the Vietramisation
campaign.
Q. You are up to date with this. You know.. you are in conotant touch
with this, more so, probably than anyone else. Do you feel that the Vietriamisation
programme is going along sufficiently successfully enough-to~ announce again
this year, or to have the possibility of announcing again this year that we would
withdraw a further battalion of troops?
PM That is far too iffy and speculative, I a m afraid for me to comment
on that.
Q. Well, now, there is another thing that comes to mind. With these
two issues that you have got going now law and order and Mr Vthitlam's
dilemma on mutiny, would it be possible for' John Grey Gorton to say, " Niow
I may be able to hold a double dissolution on these two issues, and one or two
other issues". Is that a possibility? 0. 0 a / 7
PM WelLthere-iala~ ys-a-pos ibhility, I suppose, but this again is far too
speculative a thing and I would think on the whole it was fairly unlikely that a
government with over two years to run would call a double dissolution unless it
was absolutely necessary. I would like to use my own phrasing again for what
you call law and order, because I think it is more accurate, . and that is what
we are out to do is to protect the civil rights of people against their being
interfered with by demonstrators. There again, there is a big difference
between us and the Labor Party.
Q. What else do you think could become an election issue for the Senate
election, other than these two matters that we have discussed pretty fully?
What else do you feel strongly about? I have got something in mind that I would
like to ask you but I would like to know whether you have the same idea before
I perhaps telegraph my punch here.
PM What do I feel strongly about that we should
Q. Yes, what do you feel should be another election issue'! I mean, you
are going to set the terms on this.
PM Yes, well, it depends. I mean, you can have an election issue where
you say; " We, the Government, believe this should happen, and this is the goal
we are working towards" and you can have the Opposition promising anything at
all and trying to make that an election issue. And indeed it is not altogether easy
to have real issues, significant, far-reaching issues at a Senate election because
we have just had an election at which a policy for three years was set out. But
I believe one of the most important things we have got to do is to contain
inflation, is to stop inflation growing. Now we have given clear evidence of eur
approach to this, of our concern with it. The promises, high, wide and handsome
and unlimited that have been made on behalf of the Opposition would undoubtedly
cause inflation and damage to all those on fixed incomes least able to look after
themselves and to those in the country who are in the rural industries having a
very, very hard time indeed.
Q. Now there is a point here and I think we should both acknowledge it. Ycu
mentioned hardship. The pensioners, their 50 cent raise from the Federal
Treasurer.... is them likely to be some sort of help to them before the next
Budget? Now, I just want to point this out. In Victoria, for instance, the
Hcusing Commission, for the pensioners, put up all the pensioners' rents by
cents and so the 50 cents the Government gave them went nowhere. It was
spent before they got it. You have been acknowledged as probably the most
social-service Liberal Prime Minister that we have ever had. This was quite a
shock this 50 cents. o n
/ U
8.
PM I suppose It was and yet t,. ere has never been as much done in the
field of social services as has been done in the three Budgets that we have
brought in. This operation this year because of the inflation of which I have
spoken was a holding Budget as far as the pensioners were concerned; riot as
far as social services were concerned because the health scheme coming in this
year should, I believe, give great benefit to people. But merely looking at the
rate of pension for base pensioners in the last three Budgets, the rates have been
raised including the 50 cents far nD re than has the cost of living increased in
that time. There have been two big increases arid this small holding one. All I
can say is that we have not changed our approach towards social servicec. We
have giver full evidence of that in the tapered means test, in the whole variety
of smaller things, with assistance to handicapped children, with paying pension
at single rates to people who are separated, with the rates of the pension.
themselves, and ths is an approach we propose to continue.
Q. Prime Minister, I think time is running out on us now, unfortunately,
but do you think that it is possible to increase the pension before the n=~
Budget another 590 cents, a dollar or something like that?
PM You are asking me for Budget information kind of stuff
Q. Well I am asking something which could be pretty important with
the Senate election coming up.
PM I would not believe that bribery should enter into a Senate election,
and inherert in what you are saying since you hitch the two together, t hrt is
why I make that comment.
Q. But you do think that perhaps they could be helped soorner or later?
PM I think that we as a government will continue the same approaches
that we have had in the past and that the pensioners' lot will continue to get
better.
Q. We haven't got very far on that one: Thanks very much Prime Minister.