Subjects: Sir William Deane; Sir James Gobbo and Mr James Landy; Konrad Kalejs and Mr Joe Gutnick; donations to the Liberal Party; Arthur Sinodinos; IVF; Anwar Ibrihim, Malaysia; Kirribilli pact
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………
TRIOLI:
Good afternoon Mr John Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
How are you Virginia?
TRIOLI:
I’m extremely well.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good to be with you.
TRIOLI:
Welcome to Melbourne.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you. Always nice to be in Melbourne.
TRIOLI:
Now look I believe you had lunch today with a few of Mr Murdoch’s Herald Sun journalists. Anything you’d care to share with ABC reporters that you might have spoken to them about?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they were my guests at a lunch and we enjoyed it and we talked about everything on the political waterfront- the political scene, the ALP Conference, the latest decisions of the Government, the progress of tax reform. But it was one of those sorts of lunches were beyond that sort of general description you know that we invoke Chatham House rules.
TRIOLI:
Oh not the dreaded Chatham House rules.
PRIME MINISTER:
It’s the dreaded Chatham House rules.
TRIOLI:
So I can’t know anything beyond that little list?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no, no you can’t.
TRIOLI:
Why did they get privilege?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have meetings with a lot of people in the newspapers and television from time to time. I talk to them. We often have vigorous disagreements on issues but I think it’s important for senior political figures to be willing to talk about issues privately as well as publicly with journalists and I try and do that. I do it a lot publicly. I’m doing it now. I also do it from time to time privately.
TRIOLI:
Well it’s good that you’re hear in Victoria at the moment because it was superlative - I have to say - political timing yesterday by announcing that Sir William Deane gets an extension of time as Governor General at exactly the same time as our state premier Steve Bracks cuts short Sir James Gobbo’s time as Governor. Did you find it irresistible yesterday not being able to resist releasing that news?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it just was due to be released and it just came out that way. And I made the announcement. His term’s been extended for a period of six months. I think he’s been a distinguished Governor General. It will mean that he can participate in some of the events surrounding the celebrations of the centenary of the federation of Australia and I think that’s appropriate.
TRIOLI:
It was an interesting decision because of course you’ve had disagreements with him over time and of course he’s been from time to time an independent but trenchant critic of Government programmes. So it shows an interesting degree of well, magnanimity I guess, that you choose to extend his time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it was the right thing to do. I wouldn’t take too much notice of some of the those reports about violent disagreements.
TRIOLI:
You’re more friendly than we know?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well he’s done a good job and we enjoy a good professional and personal relationship. I don’t recall that he’s been trenchantly critical of Government programmes. He’s been quite a proper constitutionalist in the job that he’s done.
TRIOLI:
He’d like to see the Government apologise for the stolen generation.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don’t think you can find anything in anything he’s said publicly suggesting that he’s in disagreement with Government policy. And I think he would be offended if you were to make that claim.
TRIOLI:
Do you think Sir James Gobbo should have been allowed more time as Governor down here in Victoria?
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m not going to buy into that. That’s really a matter for Victorian political debate. But I’ll say this of him. I have an enormous regard for him. Of the vice regal people I’ve known in my public life none is better equipped than Sir James Gobbo. He was a wonderful representative of the Crown here in Victoria and I’ve always found him a person of total propriety, even-handed, did the job in the way it ought to be done. None of that is said disrespectively of his replacement. I mean we all know…
TRIOLI:
Well what a wonderful choice in John Landy.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean he’s a wonderful Australian and he’s somebody who’s forever remembered and also continued to be respected. So I don’t by my comments about Sir James in any way imply criticism of the new choice. The question of whether Sir James’ term should have been longer, I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to publicly express a view on that. That’s a matter for people in the Victorian political context to make comment about. It’s not really appropriate for the Prime Minister to buy into those things but I do record very deliberately my great respect for him and the job that both he and his wife have done. And I naturally wish the incoming Governor who I know and respect a lot, I wish him well.
TRIOLI:
John Howard are you despairing at the state of the Liberal Party here in Victoria? Dr Napthine barely rates.
PRIME MINISTER:
No I’m not despairing. You always do badly in your early years, your early time in opposition. Remember?
TRIOLI:
Oh yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
After the defeat of the Kirner government people didn’t rate Mr Brumby very highly. They didn’t rate Mr Bracks very highly when he was….
TRIOLI:
They didn’t rate Mr Kennett very highly for a while there either.
PRIME MINISTER:
No of course they didn’t. And they didn’t rate me very highly at various stages in my political career. I’ve been right down at the bottom of the pile as far as ratings are concerned. It’s a very unpredictable game. The Liberal Party at a state level is going through a period of rebuilding and I don’t despair of it, no. It’s difficult for Dennis Napthine and his colleagues at the present time. But they have a political punch because they have the numbers in the upper house. You never write parties off. There’s too great a tendency by too many to write parties off too readily at both a state and a federal level and on both sides. I mean Steve Bracks was not given any real chance of winning and he did. And I think that’s a warning for all of us. I treat every election very seriously and I certainly take the view that I’ll have a tough fight at the next election and I’m going to treat that next election with all the seriousness that I know the tough fight that it will be deserves.
TRIOLI:
But Mr Howard the problem you have of course is that you’ve got a terrible situation with the Liberal Party both in New South Wales and Victoria in terms of its popularity and ratings. Have you really got enough national support to counteract the woeful state performances when it comes to an election?
PRIME MINISTER:
We don’t have a terrible state federally in either New South Wales or Victoria. I mean we have five of the most senior Ministers in the federal Government, Liberal Ministers from Victoria. We have the Treasurer, Peter Costello, we have Richard Alston. We have Michael Wooldridge, we have David Kemp and we have Peter Reith. I mean they are five of the most senior people in the Government. They are all Victorian Liberals. I don’t think you could say that represents the terrible state of the Liberal Party in Victoria. The Liberal Party in Victoria federally is firing very well and is making a massive contribution to the federal Government’s performance.
TRIOLI:
Well you’ve got a few people off side at the moment though of course. One of them being Mr Joe Gutnick. He said that he’s going to withhold his financial support from the Liberals, from your Party until such time as you show enough leadership in dealing with and deporting Mr Konrad Kalejs. I mean it’s one thing of Mr Gutnick to accuse you of not showing leadership but can your Party really do without Mr Gutnick’s money?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I hadn’t the faintest idea whether Mr Gutnick does or has contributed to the Liberal Party. I don’t handle donations.
TRIOLI:
Do you care that he’s [inaudible]?
PRIME MINISTER:
There’s one thing I don’t do is I don’t change policy according to the level of financial contributions from anybody whether it’s Mr Gutnick or anybody else and no Prime Minister will ever do that. No Prime Minister worth his salt will ever do that. The issue that he complains about is my refusal to sponsor a change to the citizenship law giving the federal Government the right to retrospectively take away the citizenship given to this man because of war crimes charges. Now nobody in public life is more sensitive to the concerns of the Jewish community in Australia and around the world about war criminals than I am but we do live under the rule of law and Mr Kalejs as an Australian citizen is entitled to a presumption of innocence. That is a cornerstone of the legal system under which we live and I’m sure that if he reflects on it, Mr Gutnick and others who might share his view don’t want us to overturn what is a hallowed principle of our legal system and that is the presumption of innocence.
TRIOLI:
But I doubt that anybody would argue with you about that. You have to assume that. But the federal Government has appeared to many, and Joe Gutnick’s not isolated here, in seeming wary to the point of inertia about actually really acting on the Konrad Kalejs matter.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that’s not correct. That’s completely wrong. We have accelerated as much as we possibly could the negotiation of an extradition treaty with Latvia, the country of Kalejs birth where the crimes are alleged to have occurred.
TRIOLI:
Is there any progress on that that you can tell us about?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we’re waiting on the Latvians to commence extradition proceedings. We have constantly said that if more evidence is brought forward it will be given to the Australian Federal Police for proper assessment. We cannot do any more consistent with proper legal process. And I want to say to your listeners who are concerned about this issue- we are not inert, we are not indifferent. We understand the concern and the sensitivity but there are proper processes of law which must not be short circuited no matter what the circumstances are.
TRIOLI:
But frustratingly slow though isn’t it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the law moves very slow. You’re dealing with events that happened almost sixty years ago. Many people are dead, the witnesses and so forth and that is inevitable. And it really is a question of properly applying the processes of the law. But in the end you do what is right irrespective of the level of financial support that your political party receives.
TRIOLI:
And another criticism this morning from a different quarter from Mr Brian Toohey and the Financial Review. According to that paper this morning a $10,000 donation to the Liberal Party will get you dinner at the Lodge and your very kind attention.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that’s just wrong.
TRIOLI:
That’s wrong? It sounds about as inappropriate as a US political donations remember that got a stay a night in the Lincoln bedroom in the White House. It’s getting close.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if the claim were accurate you’d be getting close.
TRIOLI:
So the donations [inaudible].
PRIME MINISTER:
But did you notice incidentally… Well look I do make it very plain that the use of the official residence in the time that I’ve been Prime Minister has been completely appropriate. And I notice that article doesn’t name anybody. It was really just a unsubstantiated allegation which I reject.
TRIOLI:
So is it a coincidence that the person who made the donation also had a dinner at the Lodge? Is that [inaudible]?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don’t know whether the person made a donation. I don’t handle donations. They’re handled by the Party organisation. I mean I invite people to dine with me. Those invitations are not conditional on… those invitations are not conditional on donations. I don’t impose those conditions, it would be outrageous.
TRIOLI:
Mr Howard, one other matter that seems to be racing along this morning is your Chief of Staff, Arthur Sinodinos.
PRIME MINISTER:
Sinodinos.
TRIOLI:
Sinodinos, I am sorry, is a board member of a Canberra aged care home.
PRIME MINISTER:
Isn’t that dreadful?
TRIOLI:
It seems like an obvious conflict of interest.
PRIME MINISTER:
Clearly, what Arthur is doing is, is in his free time he is helping the Greek community in Canberra with their aged care facilities. He’s on the board of management, he’s been on it since 1991, I disclosed that fact that I appointed him as Chief of Staff three years ago, I in fact made it public in the news release accordingly. I applaud him for doing it. I encourage my staff to do good works, I want more people on my staff to engage themselves in charitable activities and I just think it’s incredible that a person who is prepared to give of his time to help the elderly to do charity work is attacked.
TRIOLI:
I should think the last thing you want at the moment in your office, Mr Howard, is anyone associated with working in nursing homes, given in particularly in Victoria, it’s been a very very public issue though here and it matters to a great deal of people.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I am sorry, you seem to have missed the point that he is helping people who need help. He is engaging himself in charity work. There is no conflict of interest. I’ve had a look at the guidelines, there is no conflict of interest at all.
TRIOLI:
The home that was one that was criticised in a recent audit is not up to standard and that’s the person who is associated with this home.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, but that’s a separate issue.
TRIOLI:
But it effects your office.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, it’s a separate issue. The allegation is there’s a conflict of interest. There is no conflict of interest and I just think that it’s extraordinary that somebody who is doing something for the community for nothing in his spare time gets criticised. I mean don’t we want people to give of their time and their efforts and their resources?
TRIOLI:
It depends on how much of it gives an appearance of a conflict of interest.
PRIME MINISTER:
There can be no conflict of interest when there is no remuneration and he himself has not been involved in any lobbying and indeed the grant the home got to get going, to be started was in fact achieved when the Keating government was in office and not the Howard government. So all I can say is good luck to and good on Arthur for doing something for his community. I think more should do it.
TRIOLI:
Moving away from Australia and looking at issues in the region, the former Malaysian Deputy Prime Minister, of course Anwar Ibrahim sentenced to nine more years in goal on sodomy charges. Do you believe Mr Howard that the judicial process that bought about this sentence are as Anwar has said, corrupt?
PRIME MINISTER:
I can’t pretend to know all of the details, but there is enough, there are enough expressions of concern and given the long history of this to cause me to worry that the judiciary is not as independent as it used to be the case but it is a real area of concern. It does seem to be part of a series of events that represent some kind of political campaign against Anwar and that is a matter of very great concern.
TRIOLI:
Have you expresses these concerns to Prime Minister Mahathir…
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I did, two years ago.
TRIOLI:
In response to yesterday’s news?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, not yesterday’s news but yesterday’s news and developments are of a piece with a pattern of conduct that’s gone on over a period of time and yes I did, I had a long discussion with Dr Mahathir in what November of 1998, when I went there for the APEC meeting and I was very direct in what I said. I didn’t say anything publicly that I wasn’t willing to say privately to him and he naturally rejected the allegations that I made. We don’t have any quarrel with the Malaysian people, we in fact have very close relationships with a lot of people in Malaysia. There are 130,000 Malaysians who are educated at Australian universities under the Columbo plan and its successor arrangements, so our quarrel is not with the Malaysian people, but it’s difficult not to be concerned about what has happened, let me put it that way.
TRIOLI:
Do you have any concerns at the moment Mr Howard about the transfer of power in Indonesia from Wahid to Vice President Megawati? What’s Australia’s response to that news?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, I wouldn’t be critical of that?
TRIOLI:
Does it concern you at all?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, it’s not really my place to be giving a running commentary on the internal workings of Indonesian politics. If the President of Indonesia decides on some rearrangement of responsibilities, that’s really a matter for him. I have a lot of respect for Dr Wahid, he represents a very liberal open minded, democratic change for Indonesia and the people of Indonesia and I hope the world should give him their support because he is their best hope in my opinion and he has bought about an enormous change in Indonesia and he deserves understanding and praise for the change that he’s bought about.
TRIOLI:
There’s a hope then for Megawati Sukarno Putri?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven’t said that. I have just said…
TRIOLI:
I am wondering if you think that…
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I am not going to get in to comparisons, that’s not really, for me that’s a matter for the Indonesian people. It is a democracy and I want to see relations between our two countries at a government level continue to repair themselves after what happened in East Timor. They are. We are looking forward in that relationship rather than backwards and I want to see that happen.
TRIOLI:
Mr Howard, on an issue that we were discussing on this programme, well a great deal over the last couple of weeks actually and this morning, potential changes to the anti-discrimination act concerning access by single and lesbian women…
PRIME MINISTER:
That’s the sex discrimination act.
TRIOLI:
Yes. When are you going to introduce legislation in to the house to amend that act?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I can’t give you the exact date but very early after we go back. It’s a fairly simple amendment and it would be introduced and it will be put in to the House of Representatives and then it will go to the Senate and we will have to wait and see what attitude the Labor Party caucus takes. But it’s a very simple amendment and we are certainly going to go ahead with it.
TRIOLI:
What do you think its chances are of [inaudible]?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don’t know. Mr Beazley I think says he’s against it, I am not quite sure. I am a little confused. Jenny Macklin has said that he’s against it and he says that he agrees with Jenny Macklin, but he hasn’t gone much further than that. It seems as though he is against it, but I can’t be absolutely certain.
TRIOLI:
It seems a strange intervention for you to make Mr Howard because you are not a social engineer. I mean you are not interested in that sort of thing so.
PRIME MINISTER:
You say I’m not interested in…
TRIOLI:
Social engineering and sort of trying to…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well what do you mean by social engineering?
TRIOLI:
What should construct a family. Who makes up a family?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I’m not a person who seeks to tell individuals or families how to conduct their lives. Is that what you mean by social engineering, but as Prime Minister I have the responsibility to, I guess, articulate on behalf of the government any firm views they have about these things and the community expects governments to have views. I don’t think it’s a strange intervention at all. I think most people were quite unsurprised that the government should have a view. I don’t think it was a strange intervention. I think it would have been very strange if we had remained silent and said nothing. After all, it was never the intention and I have looked back over the history of the sex discrimination act. It was never the intention of that act that it should interfere with things like this. You see, all you’ve had in this case is a piece of state legislation here in Victoria which had the support of the Kennett government and the then Labor opposition saying that this treatment should not be available for people other than those in a marriage or a de facto relationship involving a man and a women. That legislation had the support of both sides of politics in Victoria and it was only, there was only a problem because that was found to be in conflict with the federal sex discrimination act. So for several years, both sides of politics in Victoria thought it was perfectly proper and reasonable and acceptable.
TRIOLI:
But times change.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well hang on, I’m not sure on this that they have changed as much as some of my critics suggest. I am not sure about that, I don’t know, but I’m not sure. I would in fact question whether community attitudes have shifted away from the expression of what is in the Victorian act.
TRIOLI:
Mr Howard, one quick, last question before I let you go. You canvassed recently the possibility of staying on as Leader of the Party for a while yet. Do you really think that you can as I think only Robert Menzies has managed to do, to pick your own time when you want to leave? Can you really do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I am not sort of setting out to emulate anybody in the history of politics or the Liberal Party. I am always at the service and the disposal of the Australian people. The Australian people will decide whether I lead in the government, remain Prime Minister after the next election and they’ll decide that and I will accept whatever decision they take. I don’t take them for granted, I never will. I have indicated before and I repeat that sometime during the next term, I will obviously give thought to my future. Now I haven’t said any more or less than that. Now I think it’s better with these things to be honest with the public rather than have a secret deal as Mr Hawke and Mr Keating had at Kirribilli House witnessed only by the late Peter Abeles and Bill Kelty. And 19 million Australians were shut out of that deal, 19 million Australians are in on my thinking. Every Australian knows my thinking on this subject, whereas when it came to my two Labor predecessors, they regarded the Prime Ministership of Australia as their sacred trust and that really it was theirs. It was their procession. I don’t regard it as my posession. It’s a gift to me from the Australian people and I always regard it in that way.
TRIOLI:
Well Mr Howard, thanks for your time this afternoon. And if there ever is a secret deal, you’ll come back and tell us on the drive programme won’t you?
PRIME MINISTER:
There won’t be any secret deals from this Prime Minister.
TRIOLI:
Thank you. Mr John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia.
[ends]