BYNER:
The Prime Minister of Australia is John Howard, he is on the line. Prime Minister, thanks for joining us today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Leon.
BYNER:
I believe you have just come from a meeting and the meeting has been dealing with a number of greenhouse issues which have been very top of mind in the last few days, particularly in view of a report that came out of the UK which has put a monetary value on global warming. What can you tell us?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well what I've done this morning is to announce an investment by Australia of $60 million in the first of a series of projects in collaboration with our partners in the Asia-Pacific climate change partnership, that's America, China, India, Japan and South Korea. And these projects that we're investing in are all about technology to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions from traditional power stations. One of them is a device that will capture carbon from the smoke that comes out of an ordinary power station, separate the carbon and then bury it and it's believed that once this technology is up and running, and we're providing money along with industry to do all the research and to test it on different power stations; once it's up and running it could reduce those greenhouse gas emissions by between 85 and 95 per cent. And measured by practicality, I can't think of anything that's more likely to make a contribution to reducing the problem we're all concerned about than something that will reduce the greenhouse gas emissions from a coal-fired power station.
BYNER:
Do you concur with the popular view among science that, and certainly some of your political foes, that the greenhouse issue is such now that it's most serious, it is the most important issue for all of us and it has to be tackled now?
PRIME MINISTER:
I agree that climate change is occurring, I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the doomsday scenarios, but I accept that climate change is occurring and I believe that it has to be tackled in a number of ways. I believe that we must reduce the greenhouse gases coming out of the use of fossil fuels. I believe that renewables like solar and wind can make a contribution, but only at the margin. I believe that as time goes by and we use technology to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions we will have to look at nuclear as part of the solution because when you apply these new technologies you make coal use dearer. At the moment we have this wonderful situation that we have all of this coal, it's very cheap and we get a lot out of it, both domestically and because we export it, but the problem is that it's dirty and it's causing the greenhouse gas emissions and everybody accepts that part of the response is to reduce those greenhouse gas emissions. But as we do so we make its use dearer and as you make it dearer you make the relative attraction of something like nuclear power in the future come into the equation. So you can't say in relation to this issue there's one single solution and the last thing you should say is that you solve the problem by signing Kyoto. We do need to look at the potential of an emissions trading system around the world, but the critical thing is around the world. If we were to get into emissions trading that didn't include all the countries in the world, in particular the big emitters, then that would hurt us and it would hurt us because we would be pricing our carbon at a higher cost and therefore assuming that additional cost, but the other countries wouldn't and therefore it would be cheaper and more economic for people to invest in those countries rather than in Australia. And that's why I say if we simply embrace Kyoto in its present form that could, in time, cost us jobs and investment.
BYNER:
Even though we are going to be within a per cent of achieving what Kyoto wants anyway, the Treasurer said this earlier this morning, so you're suggesting that by ratifying it we put a shackle around us?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, what I'm saying is that if we were to ratify it in it's present form, there's a risk in the future that you might have us meeting targets that involve pricing our carbon and therefore increasing the cost of the use of coal, yet those same penalties would not apply to countries like China and India and therefore people would invest in those countries because they could pollute their heads off and it would be more attractive to send the investment there, that's what I'm saying.
BYNER:
Are you likely to take Australia down the path of carbon trading?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I am prepared to look at an emissions trading system provided everybody is involved, because unless everybody's involved we'll be bearing a cost because there is a cost in an emissions trading system. One way or another it involves pricing carbon and unless everybody is paying the price for using a given amount of carbon, those that pay the price are disadvantaged to those that don't, that's why you've got to have everybody involved.
BYNER:
Alright, let's take some calls Prime Minister. First of all Emile, what's your question for John Howard?
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Howard. I think I'm the wrong person to be speaking to you because I'm an unashamed supporter of you and your government...
PRIME MINISTER:
Unashamed what?
CALLER:
Unashamed supporter of you and your government.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
CALLER:
I'm just, I'm a little concerned with all this hysteria over this greenhouse gases and the environment, that the Liberal Party is not selling your message the way you sold it now to Leon, and that it's not getting through to the average man in the street.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well sir, I think that's a good point. We are doing a lot in this area, we're all concerned about reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but we've got to do it in a way that doesn't hurt Australia and doesn't squander the natural advantage we have and I guess all of us can improve the way we explain things to the public and I'm no exception.
BYNER:
Let's talk to John. John, your question for Prime Minister Howard?
CALLER:
Good morning and thanks for the opportunity Mr Howard to speak to you. I have two very quick things. I'm very concerned about; I work in the automotive industry, very concerned about the amount of imported vehicles with the lower tariffs. But the second part, I wanted to thank you, and I'm not sure when you did this, but for the introduction of the Australian Service Medal for ex-servicemen and women from all branches of the Defence Force. I am a former serviceman myself and just through word of mouth I heard that this medal was being offered. I'm a former infantry soldier and I wanted to thank you. I'm not sure when you introduced it, but it's a great idea, thank you.
PRIME MINISTER:
We introduced it about a year ago and it was in response to a lot of concerns people had that the old system didn't recognise everybody and we eliminated a lot of the unfairness and I'm very grateful for your reaction, and that appears to have been the general reaction of people, very much so.
CALLER:
I can't obviously wear my uniform on ANZAC Day, I'm not a serviceman any more, but it's good to be able to get out there and show that I was a part of something.
PRIME MINISTER:
In relation to the motor industry, as in all of these cases we have to balance support for the local industry with the need to give customers, consumers, a range of vehicles from which to purchase and we've tried to balance the two. It is interesting that the motor manufacturing industry in Australia, although it is going through difficult stages, was going through just as difficult a stage when it was more heavily protected than it is now. I can remember when I was first a very junior Minister in the 1970s and we had a very elaborate system of protection. I think we reserved about 85 per cent of the local market and the motor manufacturing industry then was going through a very difficult phase and I'm not sure that the answer lies in going back to higher protection. Of course the higher fuel prices we've had are having an impact on the sort of cars people buy, and that obviously is part of the, one of the factors that influences the buying decisions that the public make.
BYNER:
Prime Minister, what's the situation with regards to your concern about the security of those in Fiji, particularly Australian citizens?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we are worried about the possibility of a military coup. I spoke to the Prime Minister last night and I spoke to the New Zealand Prime Minister as well, and our Chief of the Defence Force has spoken to his counterpart in Fiji; stressed the importance that the military in that country respect the constitutionally-elected government. We will take all measures necessary if they're needed to look after our own people. In the past, when coups of this kind have occurred Australians have by in large, not comprehensively is this the case, but by in large of have not being interfered with or molested but if it were necessary to evacuate people we would. We hope it doesn't come to that and my simple position and that of all of the Pacific countries is that Fiji has a democratically elected government. It's had military coups in the past. It's gone back to democracy, the world has welcomed that. The economy of that country's done well over recent years and the military should respect the civilian government. The military is very important in any country, but it is subservient and answerable to and under the control of the civilian government, and that is a cornerstone of the democratic process.
BYNER:
We're talking with Prime Minister John Howard. Let's go to Seacliff. Phil, what's your question for the Prime Minister?
CALLER:
Good morning Leon. Good morning Mr Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
CALLER:
This is regarding the reintroduction of live exports to Egypt. Just recently some new agreement has been reached apparently in this respect. I have actually a two part question and I want to know what assurances is there that these agreements that have been signed have that they will be actually adhered to, because the people in Egypt to do with animal welfare are saying that no matter what papers have been signed in Australia it won't happen because there are no laws in Egypt, enforceable laws, to protect these animals in that country. And my second part of the question is that if by some chance the Aussie animals are treated better, what happens to all the other animals that are slaughtered in Egypt? Is it okay to be cruel to them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's never okay to be cruel to animals, ever, and we don't endorse that and we have taken a lot of steps consistent with maintaining this trade which is important to the livelihood of a lot of farmers in Australia to see that the animals are slaughtered in as humane a manner as possible. And I can't give you chapter and verse of all the understandings without getting advice, but if you wanted to leave your name and address with the station I could get you some more detail and write to you with that detail. But I do know this, that the trade was only resumed after the Government, and in particular the relevant Department, the Agriculture Department, was satisfied that humane conditions would apply in relation to the slaughter. I naturally can't answer for what occurs in other parts of the country, a foreign country, but I can as a condition of licensing the export of Australian sheep, live sheep, I can satisfy myself that they will be treated in a humane fashion. As to the detail of that, I'd be happy to supply more but I just don't have it at my fingertips.
BYNER:
Julie, good morning.
CALLER:
Good morning. Good morning Prime Minister. I wanted to just ask why, I've got a quote here from Professor Ian Lowe, the President of the Australian Conservation Foundation, there is no doubt that reducing meat consumption is one of the most effective things the individual can do to reduce their greenhouse gas pollution. And scientists have concurred world-wide that meat eating is unsustainable in the long term, yet our Government does nothing to encourage vegetarianism.
BYNER:
Do you have a comment on that Mr Howard?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well my comment is that we have to preserve a sense of balance and reasoning. If you did every single thing that some people on the extremes of this argument advocate, you'll end up almost ending the sort of life we now have. I mean we have to keep a sense of balance and moderation. Yes, the globe is getting warmer and we all have to contribute to that and we all have to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but we can't so radically alter our lifestyle that it becomes very different from what it is now. Over time we'll have to adjust. I don't believe in compulsory vegetarianism, which is the sort of logical consequence of that kind of approach. I think what people eat is a matter of choice. I encourage people to eat healthily and I encourage people to exercise. As to how the individual gives affect to those two things is a matter for him or her, I don't think it's the role of the government to tell people that they should or should not be vegetarians.
BYNER:
Let's go to Richmond, Laurie you're talking with Prime Minister John Howard.
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Howard, how are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Very well.
CALLER:
I'm just ringing in regard to the ABC axing The Glasshouse. Now, my question to you basically is, has any political pressure been put on the ABC?
PRIME MINISTER:
I certainly haven't. Have they axed it?
CALLER:
They axed it in regards to, and their statement was that it was politically biased towards yourself and Mr George Bush, so my basic question was yeah, has any political pressure been put on the ABC in regards to funding or anything like that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have not axed the program, if it's been axed then it's been axed by decision of the ABC, I haven't and I haven't asked that it be axed. I don't watch it, I occasionally will flick it on but not very often. I do not tell the ABC what programs it should run, I respect the independence of the ABC. From time to time if the ABC treats a news item in an unbalanced fashion I will say so and I'll say that in relation to other programs as well.
BYNER:
Sam, good morning.
CALLER:
Good morning Leon, good morning honourable Prime Minister. My question is about pension actually. It's, if I work here all my life honourable Prime Minister, and I pay my taxes and I do the right thing and I go and choose to live say for instance in Turkey, why can't I be entitled to get my pension if I live in Turkey, say for instance Turkey?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there are certain rules applying to this and it depends very much on whether we have a reciprocal social agreement with Turkey, but some people take the view that you are entitled to only work in this country for a certain number of years to go and live in another country and draw the pension and others take the view that if you lived in this country for a long period of time and you decide to live somewhere else there should be some break on what your entitlement is to draw the pension from Australia because the pension is being funded by today's taxpayers. We don't have a dedicated social security fund into which your, or a portion of your taxes is paid. Today's pensions are paid by today's taxpayers even though they are paid to people who were yesterday's taxpayers and there's two sides of that argument. In some countries we have social security agreements where the pension levels are set and the eligibility rules and the number of years you have to work, but why don't you stay in Australia?
BYNER:
Prime Minister I want to get back onto the greenhouse issue. The report that came out of the UK where World Bank officials have put a monetary value into the trillions on the effects of global warming, how did you receive that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I knew it was coming, I'd been told that. Look, there's no doubt that the globe is getting warmer. It's very hard to be confident at what rate. I was interested in the calculation made by Sir Nicholas Stern. He's a former economist of the World Bank, it wasn't a World Bank analysis, he now has a position in the British Treasury and he was an economist at the World Bank. The World Bank has a lot of economists, he was a senior economist. He is an intelligent man, he's a good economist and his views are interesting and worth reading, but as in all of these difficult issues he's just another contributor and we have to be very careful that we don't get mesmerised by one person's views. But I'm not arguing with the proposition that we have a challenge with climate change. I want the Australian people to focus on practical ways of responding and that's what I was doing this morning. I mean, we can respond in a practical way by trying to clean up the use of coal, we can expand opportunities for people to use solar and wind recognising that you can never replace power stations with solar and wind power and we can also be open minded enough to look at the potential of nuclear power. But I'm not frightened to look at nuclear because nuclear is clean and green.
BYNER:
It will take 10 years to develop...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but everything will take, but Leon, hang on. Of course it will take 10, maybe 20 years, but so will all of these other things. One of the things that's unreal about this debate is that some people will almost believe if you just sign a piece of paper the problem will be solved. Whatever you do will take a long period of time, the important thing is to start now on the things that are going to produce results in 30, 40 and 50 years time because that is the time horizon we are looking at. But if you start now and we are starting now with technologies to reduce the greenhouse gas effect of using coal, we are willing to look at nuclear, we're supporting solar power. Last week we announced a very big investment in Victoria to support the solar power project, potentially the largest in the world. Now all of these things together are making a contribution but we're not going to see any result in the foreseeable future, it's something that gradually occurs over a period of time and those people who run around saying well you solve everything by signing up with Kyoto are just deluding the public.
BYNER:
With regards to a future investment in green energy, what kind of funds would you predict? Now we know we're in surplus, the Treasurer has told us this and we know that to be a reality, so how important do you believe it is to put major investments into greenhouse technologies within Australia to first of all develop them and secondly export the value add?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we've already invested over the last few years $2 billion.
BYNER:
How much more?
PRIME MINISTER:
...$2 billion, well I think more will be needed but I'm not going to try and put a figure on it. It's quite impossible to put a figure on something like this. What you have to do is examine projects and if you've got a proposal that will have a beneficial effect and it works or you think it will work, and it's worth supporting you support it, but you don't say well I'm going to allocate x billion or y billion without knowing what project you have in mind. We will need to commit additional resources and it needs to be understood that in one way or another, the process of adjusting will cost us. What we as Australians have to be careful though, is to avoid a situation where it costs us a lot more than other countries and there's a danger that that will occur if we're not careful because we use the dirty product a lot more than other countries. It's all very well for countries who don't rely for their wealth on exporting coal to lecture the rest of the world about the need to clean up the use of coal because that doesn't fall very heavily on them. But it will fall heavily on us and that is why I am resisting an arrangement where everybody is not involved because if everybody is not involved, if only some people pay the price of carbon use then those that don't pay the price of carbon use, countries, for example, buy our coal and then burn it in their countries, they will end up being advantaged and we will be disadvantaged.
BYNER:
Prime Minister thank you for sparing half an hour this morning and it's good that you've been able to talk to the people of Adelaide. What are you getting from the Australian community about the questions you're being asked? What is it telling you?
PRIME MINISTER:
The public is interested, they understand they've got to do something. As always with Australians they want practical responses. They're more interested in action than theology when it comes to something like this, they really want practical measures. They do understand we have to clean things up, they're also aware that we have a lot of jobs and investments at stake in the coal industry, the gas industry, in South Australia, the largest uranium mine in the world. I mean, these are valuable God-given assets that this country has and in dealing with this problem we've got to be very careful that we don't apply a solution that suits a country that doesn't depend on natural resources for its wealth and thereby do ourselves great damage in the future.
BYNER:
Prime Minister, thanks for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[Ends]