LAWS:
Prime Minister good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning John.
LAWS:
Could you tell me why our schools need religious chaplains on the staff?
PRIME MINISTER:
Because a large number of them want them. At the moment there are a lot of schools that have chaplains, they're ones that operate in the independent sector. Our Minister has found over recent months a growing number of people in government schools asking for them. We are not going to make them compulsory and they won't be quite on the staff in the same way as a teacher, but they will be available to help teachers and they will be available to help students. The identity and the religious background will be a matter for the individual school. There won't, as far as the Government is concerned, be any discrimination. And we think that having somebody available, if a school community wants it, to provide broad pastoral, spiritual if necessary, and supportive, emotional advice to help in times of family breakdown, personal tragedy, the death of a close friend; children are very vulnerable in their early to mid teens especially and the availability of advice and help at a time of great personal and emotional crisis can make the difference between that young person coping with it or not.
LAWS:
I accept that, but I don't quite understand how you are going to designate the denomination.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, but we're not going to do that.
LAWS:
Who's going to do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
That will be done by the school community.
LAWS:
But what happens if the school community is very mixed and...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if the school community is very mixed and doesn't want somebody or can't agree, well it won't happen.
LAWS:
It will be difficult for example...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes but all sorts of things are difficult for school communities. John, having some years ago, had some association, and my wife very particularly, with a local PC, there are always debates about this or that approach that the school community ought to take and if they can't deal with this matter or don't want to touch it, well they don't have to. And I don't think every school will take it up, and they are not being compelled to and nobody is saying to the school you've got to do this. It's an optional extra that we are willing to support. And it's easy to sort of, you know, to find this or that thing wrong with it, I think the people who want it will see it in a very positive light. The people who don't want it, don't have to have it. There is no sense of discrimination, there's no sense of compulsion, it's a very open and voluntary thing.
LAWS:
Is it an effort on your behalf, and I would see nothing wrong with it if it is, to re-establish Christianity?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't believe in trying to establish a religion...
LAWS:
Re-establish.
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't believe in...I think we are a secular society in the sense that we don't have an established religion, but there are times in everybody's life, even if they are not very religious or religious at all, when having somebody available whose life's work it is to provide comfort and support and a bit of advice of a pastoral, personal kind, to have that available in your school community is a good thing, and that's really what it's about. And people who have dealt with chaplains, I mean there is many a policeman or fireman or soldier who's had a chaplain to help him in a difficult time who may not be very religious or religious at all; never been inside a church, but they find somebody with that background comforting and valuable and useful, and that really is what we are about. I mean I am not on some crusade. Religious belief is a personal thing, a very personal thing and I, as you know, I don't ram my beliefs down people's throats and I never will. But I do think that having this optional support is a very good thing.
LAWS:
Okay, so let's just take an example, let's say Lakemba Public School rings to tell whoever they've got to tell that a Muslim cleric has been signed up for that school, what do you say to that? I mean is it just bad luck for the 20 or 30 per cent of the kids who are Anglican or Catholic or Buddhist or whatever?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, yes but the person who has signed up would be required as part of his engagement to respect other religious traditions, and that will be part of the guidelines that we are laying down. But although a person will be of a particular background, it will be a condition that they will have to respect the traditions and my experience, John, is that most Christian ministers now go out of their way to be positive about the Jewish faith and the Islamic faith and sensible Islamic clergy do the same thing. I mean, I know Islam is getting a bad name at the moment because of the pronouncements of one individual, but the great bulk of Islamic clergyman, if I can be allowed to use that expression because it's something most of your listeners know what I mean...
LAWS:
Yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
The great bulk of them see our community as being made up of a number of faiths. It is predominantly influenced by the Judaeo-Christian ethic, because that is our culture and our history and we shouldn't back away from that in any way. But people are respectful towards other religions and it would be part and parcel of this hypothetical Muslim chaplain in the Lakemba Public School to respect the Christian and other traditions. I think it's probably unlikely that that will happen, but let's wait and see.
LAWS:
Okay, but if it were to happen, you could understand that there would be many Christian or Catholic mums and dads who might find it very objectionable that their child is being taught religion by a Muslim.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they are not necessarily going to be taught religion. That would depend on the arrangement that's made in the individual school. But the truth of the matter... and no child is required to use the services of a chaplain and the availability of a chaplain would in no way interfere with the religious instruction lessons in the religion of choice of the individual student. This wouldn't...the chaplain wouldn't replace what you and I in our generation would have called scripture lessons.
LAWS:
Okay, well why wouldn't you just train up a teacher to provide counselling services, why is there the imperative of a chaplaincy kind of arrangement?
PRIME MINISTER:
Because I think a chaplaincy, and the background and the fact that the person is connected with a particular stream of belief, I think that adds a dimension to the care that they provide. There are already counsellors and unless you believe that you can have a system of sort of secular priests, which I am a little sceptical of, I think having a chaplaincy is an important thing in the same way as in the armed forces and the police and the fire brigade we have chaplains, don't we?
LAWS:
We do.
PRIME MINISTER:
We don't call them secular counsellors, I mean we have counsellors as well, but we also have chaplains.
LAWS:
I know at the moment many public schools have to provide five different kinds of scripture teachers.
PRIME MINISTER:
But that's always been the case though. When I was at Earlwood Public School there were scripture lessons that were divided into, there was a Church of England, there was a Methodist, there was Presbyterian and there was Catholic. There weren't too many Catholics because in the 1950s a great bulk of them went to the Catholic school, but there were some...and that's been the case for a long time. And now of course with greater diversity you have Jewish and Hindu and Islamic.
LAWS:
Is that going to stop?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, of course it's not going to stop.
LAWS:
So that will continue.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it will continue, therefore if you are the Catholic mother of the boy at Lakemba Public School and you don't want your child to have anything to do with the hypothetical Muslim imam or chaplain that may be appointed, you don't, and you can still send your child, if they are available that is, to scripture lessons provided and supported by the local Catholic community, you can still do that. There is nothing compulsory and it's quite wrong to see these people as taking over scripture teaching in schools, that's not what they are going to do.
LAWS:
Okay, so really you don't accept the argument that the church and the state should be kept separate?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I accept the argument that there should be a separation of the church and state in that we don't have any established religion in this country. The church and the state are separate and totally so and rightly so in that sense. But the fact that for decades now we have provided Government support for schools run according to a religious belief is surely evidence that separation of church and state does not preclude the state from supporting teaching in an environment that has a particular religious bent. I mean we settled that issue 40 years ago in this country, thank God, and I think it's artificially...I'm not saying you're doing it, but those who say this is blurring the distinction are also therefore saying that providing assistance to independent schools is blurring the distinction. Plainly neither is.
LAWS:
Okay, just quickly to drought relief, congratulations on what you've announced so far, but are there any plans to extend the assistance to rural contractors and business operators in the bush because they are suffering as well?
PRIME MINISTER:
John, we are looking at that. It was a strong message I got when I went out west, or a little bit west and south-west, and we are examining that. It's not easy to settle on what kind of assistance or how far it would extend. I am aware that many of these people are suffering badly. Some who depend totally on the farm sector, such as fertiliser providers, harvester marketers and so forth, they have a particular problem. Others that have a mixture of customers, their problem may not be quite as acute and therefore we have to see whether we can separate them. It's an issue, I acknowledge that and I'm, along with my colleagues, giving consideration to it. I haven't made any decision and I'm not making any promises, but we are looking at that quite seriously.
LAWS:
Yeah, I talked to a bloke this morning who'd just bought himself a truck, a big truck too, paid a lot of money for it, and three weeks after he bought the truck he's out of business. No grain to cart, nothing.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, it's terrible. Well I met a fellow in Cowra* who was a crop sprayer. No crops to spray.
LAWS:
Yeah, well there you go.
PRIME MINISTER:
No work. I met a half a dozen practical examples of where the drought is crippling people beyond farmers.
LAWS:
Yeah, and you have an understanding of that.
PRIME MINISTER:
I do.
LAWS:
So that's good. What do we know about these three Australian nationals arrested in Yemen with suspected links to Al Qaeda? Apparently they were moving weapons or money or something into Somalia?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't know any more at the moment, I will know a bit more later this morning, than what has been in the newspapers. It is said that they were doing that, it is said that they were converts. If they have broken the law or been involved in terrorism, well they deserve everything they get.
LAWS:
I agree. What should happen to this Sheik Taj al...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think the community has to fix it.
LAWS:
And quickly.
PRIME MINISTER:
And quickly. They're doing themselves great harm.
LAWS:
He's now been caught praising jihadists.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, that's right. No, he'd probably say he's been misunderstood.
LAWS:
Well he would say that.
PRIME MINISTER:
But John, the real worry I have, and it's a very deep worry, is that this will permanently damage the attitude or the perceptions of Muslims within the broader Australian community. And I do not want that to happen.
LAWS:
I think it's happened.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there's still time if they deal with it quickly, but time is running out to stop that impression solidifying and I think we all want Islamic Australians to feel comfortable, to feel part of the Australian community. By all means we respect their religion, they're entitled to practice it like any other religious belief, but we want them to be above all Australians and we want them to feel part of the Australian community. And I thought the television imagery at the festival yesterday singing the national anthem, that's great. And so many of them, they speak with accents like yours and mine don't they?
LAWS:
They do and that...
PRIME MINISTER:
And that is fantastic. Now my worry is that what is now happening is putting all of that integration at risk.
LAWS:
Yeah well it is. Is there any scope under the anti-terror legislation to deport this fellow given that he's supporting jihadists?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven't sought advice on that. I imagine at some point there will be views expressed about that or advice given. But the immediate thing is for the community to address his position. It is not, I mean, if you incite people to hurt our troops, that could be an offence. And I am not trying to give a legal opinion. To simply express a view, although you and I may violently disagree with it, is a right people have in our democracy. To express views that are unacceptable to the mainstream of Australia is damaging to the position occupied by the person who expresses their views and so we come back to his position and the responsibility of the community to deal with him.
LAWS:
Okay, well I just hope that the community does deal with him because I think he's a pretty bad fellow.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have been trying very hard over the last few days to communicate to them, with the greatest of goodwill but with a growing sense of urgency, how important it is that they fix this problem because if they don't the rest of the community is going to feel negative and some, with ill-will towards them, will go around saying well they've left him there because half of them agree with what he said.
LAWS:
Yeah, it's a bad thing for everybody.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it is.
LAWS:
Just quickly on interest rates, Kim Beazley's promising a national campaign against your Government on interest rates. If rates go up next month as many expect they will, will that have any traction? It shouldn't should it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I will reply. I will remind people that they were 17 per cent when he was a senior Minister in Mr Keating's Government and I will remind them that they are now seven and three quarter per cent. Mr Beazley's entitled to campaign on anything he likes. In the end, people will make a judgement about who is a better economic manager. I would think that the Australian people will say if there are some challenges ahead for the Australian economy it's better to leave the people who have got a proven track record in charge.
LAWS:
I thought you might say that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's true.
LAWS:
It is yeah, I know it is. Thank you Prime Minister for your time as usual.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
LAWS:
Nice to talk to you and I hope I talk to you again soon.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thanks John.
[ends]
*Corowa