MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
MITCHELL:
Do you agree that what the Sheik has said could provoke a backlash against Muslims in Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think what he's done is so unacceptable and so out of line with, not only mainstream Australian opinion, but particularly within that, mainstream Muslim opinion. Now it is a matter that has to be resolved by the Islamic community itself. It's not for the Government to say who runs a Mosque, or who's an Archbishop, or who's a Rabbi. We talk a lot about the separation of church and state and I intend to practice that separation on this issue. But what I am saying to the Islamic community is this; that if they do not resolve this matter it could do lasting damage to the perceptions of that community within the broader Australian community and that will be a tragedy.
MITCHELL:
In what way does it do lasting damage?
PRIME MINISTER:
Because it will be seen by the rest of the community as acceptable or perhaps no more deserving of a wrap over the knuckles that this sort of thing could be said.
MITCHELL:
So you believe he should go?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look that is a matter for the Islamic community. I believe they should deal with this. It's not for the Prime Minister to say who should be a Mufti, any more than it's (inaudible) for the Prime Minister to say who should be a Cardinal.
MITCHELL:
But what are their options?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they know what their options are and my view is that they have to resolve this issue. If it is not resolved then unfortunately people will run around saying, well the reason they didn't get rid of him is that secretly some of them support his views.
MITCHELL:
Do you agree that this could be used by those who spread hate.....
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course.
MITCHELL:
To widen the division?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course ,and that is evident in the anguish of many of the spokesmen for the Islamic community, and I've heard them on radio this morning, they are clearly embarrassed and alarmed and anguished about this. What I am saying is that it lies within their hands to do something about it. I mean we do not want the Islamic community isolated, we do not want the Islamic community to be an object of criticism and derision. Now we have an obligation, we who are not of that faith, we have an obligation to embrace them and to treat them as part of our community. They have an obligation to understand that it is an exercise in self discipline for them to deal with these sorts of issues. So I'm putting it very squarely where it should be. It's not for me to say who the Mufti of Australia should be but it is for me to say as Prime Minister that I believe unless this matter is satisfactorily resolved by the Islamic community there is the real worry that lasting damage will be done because people will say, well they put him on ice, they isolated him, they suspended him, they wrapped him over the knuckles, but they still left him there.
MITCHELL:
Would it be satisfactorily resolved with an apology?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it's something more than that.
MITCHELL:
Such as?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Neil, I've stated a principle and that principle is that I don't decide who the leaders in religious sects or churches are and I don't intend to cross that line. We are a secular state and we have to practice the separation and what that means is that it is for those within a particular religion or community to deal with an issue. But my worry is that it will be used by bigoted people in the community to lambast Muslims and I don't think that's fair on the mainstream of the Muslim community. I feel for them, many of them have spoken up very strongly, and in a very articulate fashion, the Muslim women, and they've made things very clear and they've separated out issues of Muslim dress and that's really got nothing to do with it. It's the perception of an attitude towards women in our community that is...has the potential to do damage of a lasting character and I therefore can't express that view too strongly.
MITCHELL:
Pru Goward said he should be sacked and deported, well you can't sack him?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, no, well, it's not for me to sack him. As far as deportation is concerned, I think we have to observe due process, both in practice and in our language. He is an Australian citizen, of course it is a matter of interesting political record how a decision some 20 years ago by a former Labor immigration minister about his citizenship was overturned by the Hawke and Keating government, but anyway that's history now; he's an Australian citizen, I think he does have citizenship of another country as well, as do four or five million other Australians, so we've got to keep that in perspective as well.
MITCHELL:
Would you consider deportation?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, look, it's not for me to deport people, this is a democracy Neil. We have to, when something like this happens we have to express our feelings strongly but in a measured fashioned. You do not arbitrarily deport people from Australia who are Australian citizens. That only happens as a result of a long process and as a result of somebody being convicted of an offence. Now this man has not been convicted of an offence, I'm not suggesting he should be prosecuted, I'm not getting into that all. I mean this is not so much an issue of the criminal law, let's keep a sense of perspective, this is an issue of the attitude of a community being unfairly represented by some completely unacceptable remarks.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister something else, climate change. Now you've been touring, but a British report says that the climate change could lead to a world depression, as economic time bomb they say, do you believe climate change is real or is this a passing period?
PRIME MINISTER:
I believe the evidence is quite strong that there is global warming taking place. Whether it is a passing phase we'll probably not know Neil, I don't think you and I'll be around at the time when that judgement can be made. The evidence is stronger now than it's been before, that the globe is warming. I don't subscribe to the alarmist theories. Like all of these things there is a range of views. I think we'd be foolish to pretend that there aren't greenhouse gas emissions doing damage to the atmosphere, I think it would be foolish to ignore that. I think it would be equally foolish to imagine that we're on the verge of collapse and a new dark age and an economic pestilence. I mean that's an extreme view. I think what we have to do is to understand the science does support a view that the globe is warming and we have to over a period of time, across a number of fronts, take measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and Australia of course will reach her Kyoto target, unlike most of the countries that lecture us, including, in particular, the European countries.
MITCHELL:
So do you see a risk of depression or recession?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I think that is alarmist, I really do. But I do see the need to develop cleaner coal technology, I see the need to examine and embrace, if it stacks up, the potential of nuclear power, I see in renewables, that is wind power and solar power contributing at the margin, I don't think we'll ever have the day where renewables replace power stations. There's simply not enough capacity, unless you have thousands of windmills, and I think you'd find that, and I'm thinking particularly of the reaction of many people in Victoria to wind power installations, I think the idea that we would have thousands of windmills along our coast line, I don't think the public is going to take that very lightly. I think we have to see solar and wind as making a contribution at the margin, but not making a contribution to base-load generation and the idea that you can replace power stations with windmills is fanciful. The idea that at the margin windmills, particularly in remote areas, can do a good job in perhaps peak hour capacity or do a good job in the remote areas, rather, in powering local generation, I think that's quite feasible. But you've got to get cleaner coal and gas, and you've got to examine the feasibility of nuclear and we're willing to do that.
MITCHELL:
You've been through in drought areas, what do you see as the likely effect of the drought broadly on this country?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well certainly on the farm sector, a huge cut in their income. Fortunately we're getting big income from other areas and therefore the aggregate impact on our Gross Domestic Product will not be all that great. I think psychologically, huge additional frustration, because it's been year after year and the message I got yesterday was very much, well gee we love farming and we'll stick it out, but...
MITCHELL:
What about on prices in the cities?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it will have an impact. It's already starting to have some impact and it could feed through, it could feed through into the CPI, although in an ongoing way if those prices moderate, it won't have any permanent impact on inflation.
MITCHELL:
It strikes me that there's a lot of economic pain around at the moment, there isn't much money floating around the general community, yet we're looking at an interest rate rise. Now that is going to hurt significantly is it not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well can I just come to that in a moment and I will, I don't agree that there's not...that there's no money floating around in the community, we did have quite significant tax cuts and we have a 30-year low in unemployment...
MITCHELL:
I'd argue petrol prices have eaten up the tax cuts.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well except that petrol prices have come back significantly...
MITCHELL:
Oh....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they have come back significantly.
MITCHELL:
They've come back a little, yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
They have come back a little, I mean I'm surprised they've come back as much as they have, but they're still higher then we'd all like. I mean, don't get me wrong and don't any listeners get me wrong, I still think petrol prices are far too high in this country, but they have come back a little. I suppose I'm just moderating your observation that there's not a lot of money around. I think there's some and the good thing, Neil, is that we have a 30-year low in unemployment. It's an amazing employment market at the moment.
MITCHELL:
The people will be shuddering at the prospect of an increase in interest rates.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I understand that, but what has to happen, and I think an interest rate rise is entirely possible given the inflation figure. I mean, it'll be decided not by me, it'll be decided by the Reserve Bank and I think it is...but what you have to consider is that if you don't have an interest rate rise then it's possible that there will be a further boost in inflation because of the strength of the economy and a bigger rise might be needed further down the track to contain the inflation. Now that is not in anybody's interest and it's a question of, you know, the old saying of a stitch in time saves nine. And that could well be the philosophy adopted by the Reserve Bank and if it does it will be hard to criticise it and I say that as somebody who doesn't like to see interest rates go up. I understand that, but I have take a broader, longer view and I have to understand that we are living in a situation where we have a very strong, even and exuberant economy outside the farm sector, and all that activity has produced some inflationary pressure, and I stress some, and the Reserve Bank may well say that it's the best thing it can do for Australia is to dampen that inflationary exuberance a little now rather than let it run, and if it does, it may have to lift interest rates by a much bigger amount in order to dampen the inflation.
MITCHELL:
We'll take a break here, come back with calls for the Prime Minister. If you would like to speak to Mr Howard in our Canberra studio 9690 0693. I have more questions and your calls, 9690 0693.
[commercial break]
MITCHELL:
Twelve to nine, the Prime Minister is with us. Mr Howard, I'm sure you were surprised by the size of the pay rise from the Fair Pay Commission, does that add to the pressure on interest rates?
PRIME MINISTER:
No it doesn't. I wasn't entirely surprised and when you look at it, it was an entirely understandable decision. Our industrial relations policy has never been about driving down wages and the real increase for people up to $700 was 0.7, point seven of one per cent. That was the real increase for people up to $700 and bear in mind there had not been an increase in the minimum wage for more than a year so there was some reasonable element of catch up. But what yesterday's decision did was to totally destroy the Labor Party and the union argument against our legislation. For six-and-a-half months they've been running around the country calling this the 'Low Pay Commission', not the Fair Pay Commission...
MITCHELL:
So you're happy with it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I think what it does, what it did was to demonstrate the total falsity of the Labor and union attacks on this legislation. Their whole argument has been that my legislation is about grinding down the living conditions of the low paid. Now they've been demonstrated to be wrong. They said our legislation would push up unemployment, we've had 205,000 jobs in six months. They said it would create industrial disputes. The last figure showed that we had the lowest number of industrial disputes on record. So on the three counts, the trilogy of abuse that we've had from Labor and the unions on this has been repudiated on every proper consideration and yesterday was really the final nail in the coffin, so to speak.
MITCHELL:
Have you caught up with the case in Werribee involving kids filming themselves...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I have.
MITCHELL:
What makes that happen?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, sadly a combination of things. We do still have a society where people are too heavily influenced by material freely available on the Internet and on DVDs and the like. Now it's always a difficult area because fundamentally all of us are against censorship. We take the view that adults should be allowed to see and read anything they like. It probably indicates a lack of parental control, it probably indicates the susceptibility of the young men, not always just young men, but young women too, but more likely young men, to succumb to peer group pressure. It's still a very potent force in the daily lives of young people. I did see that just after I got back from Fiji, and like everybody else it was appalling, and I hope they are dealt with, and the idea that it was some kind of lark is beyond me.
MITCHELL
Hello Simon, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Yes, good morning Neil, good morning Mr Howard. My call is just in regards to a comment made by the Mufti's daughter. Now she claimed that, well to justify the comments that, they were made to a group of Muslims and not to a group of Australians. Now is that to say that the group of Muslims are not Australians?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think that is a very bad comment if that is what she said. It just indicates a problem we have. It's a very sensitive issue this because it's so easy for people to say I am attacking Muslims. I am not attacking Muslims, I am appealing to Australians of Islamic background to understand what is at stake. We've had a statement which is outrageous on any definition, from a person who is regarded as the leading Islamic cleric in Australia, he is called the Mufti of Australia. Now that sounds to me, as a Christian, that sounds to me as though he is the equivalent of the Primate in the Anglican Church or Cardinal Pell in the Catholic Church. Now he's in a very strong position, somebody will perhaps tell me I am technically wrong in that analogy, but that's the impression. Now it's quite a serious issue and my greatest concern is that out of this, those in the community who want to discriminate against Muslims will be given ammunition, and that really worries me because I do not want to see a divide. I can sense and hear the anguish in the statements made by many of the Muslim men and women who have spoken out, they are appalled by it, they understand its implications. But what I say to them is that the resolution of this matter is in your hands. You cannot expect the Government in a secular state to deal with these issues.
MITCHELL
Prime Minister, the commander of the Australians in the Middle East Brigadier Mick Moon says that we should be out of Iraq in 12 to 18 months, is he right?
PRIME MINISTER:
What he said was he thought that the conditions allowing us to leave, namely the Iraqis being able to look after themselves, might have arisen in 18 months. Now I am not going to commit myself to a time, I've not had any advice from the military suggesting that we can in any way commit ourselves to a clear definition, but like anybody in that position, and I fully understand his position, I fully support his right to express those views, he was speculating as to when the conditions on which we would base a withdrawal might arise and that is entirely consistent with our position.
MITCHELL
Jeff Kennett's going to be involved in the state campaign, he already is, will you be, have you been asked to campaign?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I have been asked to take part in the launch, and I could well be involved at other stages, that's a matter for Ted Baillieu, but the Party's already been in touch with me about being involved in the launch.
MITCHELL
Do you think he'll win?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it's tough, but I sense a fragility in the Bracks Government's position. There's just a whiff of fragility around and you never know once the campaign gets under way and both leaders have an equal say, you never know what will happen. I mean everybody on our side recognises that it's going to be tough because we have a lot of seats to win.
MITCHELL
Prime Minister, are you aware of the theft of nearly 400 kilograms of ammonium nitrate?
PRIME MINISTER:
MITCHELL
That to me is frightening. This is potentially, well a bomb along the lines of the Bali bombs.
PRIME MINISTER:
I am concerned about it and the New South Wales Police are making reassuring noises about it, but I am going to keep abreast of their investigation. It is a worry.
MITCHELL
How could it not be guarded, just sitting there in the middle of the night?
PRIME MINISTER:
You'll have to ask the New South Wales Police that. We don't run everything in this country, and nor we should and that is a matter for the New South Wales Police. But it is, I understand, their view that, you know, they don't, they don't see a terrorist motive in it, but on the face of it, it's very worrying.
MITCHELL
We'll take another call, Michael go ahead please.
CALLER:
Yes, good morning Prime Minister, it seems the Lebanese Muslim Association in Sydney had a five and a half hour meeting last night and decided to keep the Sheik on. In the context of the rape stuff in Sydney with the Lebanese boys, I mean what are they telling us, that they accept these comments?
MITCHELL
Well I will be speaking to them after nine o'clock, Michael. Prime Minister do you want...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I can only repeat what I have said. You've really indicated the very concern that I have tried to articulate over the last few minutes, and that is unless this matter is decisively resolved by the Islamic community itself, there will be a lasting impression that the reason why it wasn't resolved was that secretly some of them agreed with those comments.
MITCHELL
Prime Minister how does James Packer manage to pay $30 million capital gains tax on $4.5 billion, that's less than one per cent?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I can't give an opinion on that unless I know all the intricacies of it.
MITCHELL
Were you surprised by it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it does seem a discrepancy, but you say it was $30 million on $4.5 billion?
MITCHELL
That's right, that's what's reported in The Australian.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, yes, I don't know whether that is accurate and it's really a matter for Mr Packer to express a view on it, and my general, or my universal unconditional view is that everybody should pay the tax that they ought to pay under the law. Mr Packer, all of us.
MITCHELL
Mr Packer was also defending Alan Jones yesterday as a friend, is Alan Jones a friend of yours?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I regard him as a friend, he's a...I see Alan from time to time socially. He's not somebody who is as close to me as a long-standing family friend, but I am quite happy to call Alan a friend. I think the way in which the book has been depicted and I think a lot of the innuendo in it is, is quite unacceptable.
MITCHELL
What about the discussion of his sexuality, is that relevant?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no, I don't think it is. I mean I, it's not something I discuss with people, and I don't really think it's anybody's business. And it seems to me that there was a point made by a writer in the Melbourne Age the other day that if this had been an issue regarding the sexuality of somebody on the centre-left, there would have been an absolute uproar.
MITCHELL
Does he have undue influence, are there minders within government to deal with the 9000 letters Alan Jones writes?
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan is an old-fashioned, prolific correspondent. He likes writing letters, he does write a lot of letters to me, and I try to respond to them. But as you know from your own dealings with me that if particular issues are raised by you and your programme regarding individuals, I do try to follow them up. Now Alan does the same thing, he does it more intensively than others do, that's the nature of the bloke.
MITCHELL
Was the ABC right not to publish this book?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't know what their reasons were, that's why I can't really give an opinion. But I don't believe this book will damage Alan's reputation. I think the people who don't like him are not going to be other than confirmed in their views and the people who do respect him as a good broadcaster will continue to do so.
MITCHELL
Thank you for your time. The Prime Minister, in our Canberra studio.
[ends]