BROWN:
Prime Minister is North Korea our enemy?
PRIME MINISTER:
North Korea is a real menace to the whole world because it's a Stalinist state with which you cannot reason and it wants to be a nuclear power and that is a real worry to the region and also the whole world.
BROWN:
We have troops in Iraq because we believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. North Korea proudly boasts it has weapons of mass destruction. Could we have troops in North Korea?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't think we should be talking about invading North Korea. We should try very hard to solve this diplomatically. You never take military action off the table but it's not something the Americans are contemplating. I spoke to President Bush last night and they're not talking about an invasion of North Korea. They want to try and get the maximum world pressure, but it's very hard because it's an irrational country with an irrational leader who doesn't care about the fate of his own people.
BROWN:
Sanctions and diplomacy has got us to this point. Further sanctions, further diplomacy; is it just going to push them over the edge?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's a judgement that's hard to make but if you don't keep trying then they get away with it, they're emboldened, they'll probably carry out another nuclear test. You have to persevere; none of these things are easy. The last thing you should do is lose your head and launch an attack.
BROWN:
If I can just draw your attention to this. I mean it's had to work out how diplomacy works with a country this belligerent. Here we have the Ambassador of North Korea, after a dressing down by our Foreign Minister, thumbs up.
PRIME MINISTER:
One of the things Tara I've learnt in 32 years in politics is that you don't overreact and I don't make government decisions on the basis of a newspaper headline, if I did I wouldn't be suitable for the job anymore. I've got to be calmer than that and less emotional than that and what we have to do is persevere with our friends and the Chinese are disillusioned with what the North Koreans have done and that's very valuable because China was seen until now as being the country most likely to influence North Korea.
BROWN:
But North Korea has shown that it's quite happy to embarrass China. It's not listening. Would you concede that it's very, very difficult to know what to do with this rogue state?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes it is. This is one of the most difficult challenges the world has faced because it is a rogue state not subject to reason, not subject to a great deal of influence with an impoverished population and a leader who doesn't really care about the fate of his population and the only thing the world can do is to try and act in as much unison as possible to put the maximum pressure on this country to change, and if it were to change, then I'm sure the world would want to help the starving people, but I cant guarantee that that is going to work.
BROWN:
And so if you can't guarantee that then you can't take military action off the table can you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have said no country, certainly in America's position, would take it off the table, but it doesn't mean that they regard it is as a serious option. I know they don't and I know they don't want to do it.
BROWN:
As abhorrent as it is to many people, when you have neighbours who are this mad and this unpredictable, is it time for Australia to join the nuclear club? Should we be arming ourselves?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think we gain anything by having nuclear weapons. We gain a lot by using to the full our uranium, that's why we're looking at all of the options for nuclear power and uranium enrichment. I think we should certainly use that to the full, but I don't really think we gain anything by working on having a nuclear bomb if that's what you're getting at.
BROWN:
Well that's the question?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't, I don't. I'm not in favour of Australia having a nuclear bomb. I'm in favour of Australia developing nuclear power for peaceful purposes. It's clean and green and in an age where we're worried about global warming we should be looking seriously at nuclear power as an option because it's clean and it doesn't emit greenhouse gases and I can't understand why the extreme greenies oppose it.
BROWN:
If we're looking at threats around the world today, it doesn't feel like we're winning the war on terror does it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well for a long time people didn't feel as though we were winning World War Two or World War One. It's the final outcome that matters. The war against terror will take a long time. Many people in the 1960's thought we were losing against the Soviet Union. Kruschev famously said will bury you to the West. He didn't; Soviet Communism collapsed. We have to persevere against terrorism; you don't defeat terrorism by cutting and running.
BROWN:
Do you feel we're winning at this point?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think we are containing terrorism. I think we've made a lot of strides in our own region. Co-operation between Australia and Indonesia in fighting Jamal Islamiah has been first class. If we get out of Iraq there will be an enormous victory for the terrorists, if we fail in Afghanistan that will be an enormous victory for the terrorists as well.
BROWN:
Will Australian troops be pulled out of Iraq only when America decides its time to leave?
PRIME MINISTER:
We'll get out of Iraq when we've done our job and when we've seen a situation where the Iraqis can reasonably look after themselves. That and only then when that occurs is the time to consider going. If we go prematurely why wouldn't the Americans and British do the same? And if that happens the terrorists win and they trumpet that victory around the world and it would be a massive victory for terrorism.
BROWN:
But do you determine that Prime Minister or does George W. Bush?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I determine what happens to Australian forces and I make a judgement. My judgement is that we still have a very useful job to do in helping to train the Iraqis and helping security in the south of the country. I believe that if we were to pull them out now as Mr Beazley wants to do then why wouldn't morally the Americans and the British have the right to do the same? And if that were to happen then I believe that the terrorists would trumpet that rightly as a huge defeat for the west.
BROWN:
America is talking about keeping troops there until 2010. Will we do the same?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they're not. All that's happening is that the Pentagon is prudently planning for that possibility but the leadership at a political level has not made any such decision.
BROWN:
And you; what is your view?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, my view is that I don't commit myself to a particular time. It's driven by events not by dates. It's totally irresponsible to say by a particular date no matter what happens I'm going to withdraw troops or commit troops. You have to look at the circumstances and I'm not satisfied now and I don't know when I will be satisfied as to precisely when will be the right time to withdraw Australian troops. They're doing good work, they're helping the Iraqis and the aim is to help the Iraqis to look after themselves.
BROWN:
Thank you for your time Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[Ends]