JONES:
The Prime Minister is on the line. PM good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Alan.
JONES:
Prime Minister before we get into any of this, should we give you the Nostradamus Award because on the 7th of August this year you said that petrol prices would fall to be $1.15 and $1.20 a litre. You said we hope we're not in an era of ever-rising petrol prices, and today we're told they could get down to $1.10.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you know I'd like to claim that but I didn't have any fore-knowledge. I think what I was trying to do, and this point is worth making, was to indicate that this is governed by world circumstances, and I think it's great that it's come down. I don't claim any special prescience. I hope it stays down, but I fear that it could continue to fluctuate. But it is a reminder that ultimately, although there can be changes made at the margin here, ultimately what happens to the world price of crude oil governs the price of petrol that Australians pay at the bowser. But let's keep our fingers crossed and hope that it stays where it is now for some time.
JONES:
Is it fair to say that America and its allies are locked in a dynamic of mutual suspicion, distrust and anger with the world's fastest growing religious community of 1.4 billion Muslim believers?
PRIME MINISTER:
That's too gloomy an assessment but it is true that hand in hand with fighting terrorism militarily, and we have no alternative other than do to that, we must try and engage and win the confidence of moderate Islamic people. That is why our relationship with Indonesia is so very important. We must continue to work to bring about a solution to the Palestinian problem because until we get the two-state solution up and running, that is an Israel recognised by all of the Islamic world and an independent Palestinian state, that dispute will be used by the terrorists as a recruiting argument for young, impressionable Islamic people.
JONES:
So it is true isn't it that military power alone won't win this battle, is this a battle of ideas?
PRIME MINISTER:
But a battle of ideas alone won't win it either.
JONES:
That's correct.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean you need both. You have to recognise where there are problems, and the Palestinian issue is the prime one. It's a symbolic flashpoint for the Islamic world and we must continue to address it. And I am very pleased overnight at the news of the possible formation of a coalition government, a government of national unity in the Palestinian territories. But interestingly, the Hamas spokesman continues to say it won't recognise Israel's right to exist. Now this is a reminder of what a hardline, uncompromising attitude there is within parts of the Islamic world. Now that's not a view maintained by other Arab countries but Israel is not diplomatically recognised by some of the largest Islamic countries in the world.
JONES:
Apart from that I mean the Irans of this world want to wipe them out and Hezbollah.
PRIME MINISTER:
And anybody who says that the West has overemphasised the terrorist threat, anybody who suggests that it's all an invention designed to maintain American hegemony ignores things like that. So we have an enormously long distance to travel and sadly I fear this struggle is going to go on for years and years. But there is a lot at stake, the kind of life we have is at stake and I think we have responded appropriately over the last five years. I can't guarantee there won't be an attack in Australia. The best weapon against terrorism is prevention and that's high-grade intelligence.
JONES:
Talking about winning the ideas battle though, the argument that all this Islamic militant behaviour derives from the invasion of Iraq, it's very rarely said that the first Islamist attack on American soil was way back in 1993 when the World Trade Centre was bombed.
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely and September 11 occurred long before Iraq.
JONES:
Correct.
PRIME MINISTER:
The attack on Bali occurred before Iraq. I mean people who say that it's all been brought on by us being involved in Iraq seem to forget the chronological order of events. I mean 1993, 2001, 2002, invasion of Iraq March 2003. I mean they are simple facts that continue to be ignored.
JONES:
Your job of course is to protect the safety and to ensure the security of Australians as best you can. You've called for rogue Muslims to integrate and for them to condemn terrorism and you talked about 'stop pussyfooting around.' Kim Beazley, I have to say Prime Minister I thought made a very good point yesterday when he's proposing that tourists and aspiring immigrants pledge allegiance to Australian values before being allowed into the country, which I thought was not a bad point. And he's saying well the Prime Minister should stop pussyfooting around because he can do these things. Do you give weight to that argument?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh look I certainly give weight to it in relation to immigrants, new citizens yeah. And in fact some changes in that area have been underway for some time.
JONES:
He says these reforms should contain a commitment. Sorry, these reforms, he's saying should contain a commitment...
PRIME MINISTER:
I read what he said. I certainly think that kind of thing, and it is something that Andrew Robb, and I think I have said something about quite recently, or fairly recently. In relation to tourists, I'd like to look at the context of it in relation to tourists. I mean there is a difference to somebody who is visiting the country for two or three days, and if somebody is a terrorist intent on carrying out a raid, they happily will pledge allegiance because they're about to blow themselves up.
JONES:
Would you seriously consider including on visa forms, and his point is before they come into the country, not at citizenship time, a statement that you will uphold Australian values and law?
PRIME MINISTER:
I consider all suggestions in this area including those that come from the Opposition.
JONES:
But it would send a strong message about what we expect in our country wouldn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think the message we have to send is to people who come to this country to live here and I mean if somebody is coming....
JONES:
That's what he's saying though, before they come here.
PRIME MINISTER:
Could I just finish? If somebody is coming to do something wrong, will happily sign anything because they have an evil intent. I think what you have to do is to get people to integrate and if part of that integration process is to better understand and more strongly commit to Australian values then I'm all for it.
JONES:
I think the people listening to you, I've got to tell you Prime Minister, would love a visa form, or a citizenship form, before people come into the country signing it, in which they commit to respecting Australia's laws, political systems, religions, cultures, women, which you've alluded to, and hard work.
PRIME MINISTER:
In principle I think a full bodied commitment to Australian values is something I have always supported and very, very strongly support. I think from a practical point of view, there are differences between people who are coming here on a visit for two or three days and people who are intending to live here. I think people who are coming here for two or three days, you could have an unintended consequence in relation to that. And let's be practical. In relation to people who are going to live in Australia, the idea of getting them to fully embrace Australian values and fully commit to Australian values, I think you have heard me say that time and time again, and any way that can be embraced, that will reinforce that, I'm for.
JONES:
Yeah that's right, that's including it on a visa form though?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well any way. I mean I'm not ruling anything out.
JONES:
When you say that Muslims need to do more to condemn terrorism, which you have said, what do they need to do?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I was talking about moderate Islamic leaders, and for example when, and I'm not saying that they are sympathetic to terrorism, I'm not saying that, but when some of these incidents of the last year, particularly some of the incidents that have occurred in the United Kingdom, there seemed to me to be a marked lack of a really emphatic denunciation, particularly that recent one involving the arrest of people who had planned to carry out an attack on all of those aircraft flying out of England for the United States. Now what I argue is that there is a small section of that community which is unwilling to integrate and that is a concern. And when I say we shouldn't pussyfoot about, that's what I mean. We shouldn't be reluctant to say that. But the common thread in all terrorist attacks is that those who carry them out invoke the name of Islam in order to justify what they have done. Now that's the common thread. And I said on a programme yesterday that if you had a small section of a Christian denomination that was carrying out attacks and justifying it in the name of something that Jesus had said, which would be an obscenity, then I would expect leaders of the Christian church to regularly denounce that. That's the point I am making and I think it's very important that that happens.
JONES:
Whether some people like to admit it or not, the other thing that isn't said often enough is that for every attack on innocent civilians since September 11 2001 we don't know how many have been thwarted. In other words...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there have been quite a number.
JONES:
Not much success is given to the victories.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you can't. I mean it's the old taunt of the IRA to Margaret Thatcher. She had to be lucky every time, they only had to be lucky once. And the fact is thousands of lives have been saved because of the work of our intelligence agencies and that is why intelligence is the best weapon. Intelligence is superior to anything else, absolutely superior to anything else.
JONES:
Well on intelligence, I mean what do you say about Iran? This President Ahmadinejad, who has ignored United Nations demands to give up their nuclear programme, threatening that they will cut off the world's oil supplies if sanctions are imposed.
PRIME MINISTER:
And also saying that Israel should be terminated from the face of the Earth.
JONES:
And most probably building a nuclear capacity to feed some of the crackpots we're talking about. How do you deal with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's, to use an understatement, it's a very big challenge.
JONES:
It is.
PRIME MINISTER:
Because on the one hand one doesn't want to overreact because of the consequences, but on the other hand, if a country like that with a leader like that, with views like that, is left unrebuked by the international community then there is a lot of trouble down the road.
JONES:
Is our tolerance over what's being preached in mosques at times pussyfooting around? Is our failure to ban certain books pussyfooting around? Is our immigration programme in itself pussyfooting around?
PRIME MINISTER:
All of these things are a question of balance. I don't believe in abandoning a non-discriminatory immigration policy. That would send the wrong signal to moderate people around the world. They would feel as though they were excluded and they would feel there was a universal hostility to a particular religious group and I don't think that is helping. Going back to the earlier part of our discussion when we said we had to win not only the military battle but also the battle of ideas, all of those things are questions of balance. When I say we shouldn't pussyfoot around, what I mean by that is that we should describe the situation as it is, and the situation as it is is that justifying terrorism by a reference to Islam is the common thread of all the terrorist attacks that we've had. Every single one of them has involved some kind of indication or reference point in Islam. Now that is blasphemous, it is a misrepresentation of the Islamic religion, but it is nonetheless the truth. And it has to be stated and having stated it and accepted it, then it puts obligations on all of us, including in particular moderate Islamic leaders. Because it's their faith that is being blasphemed and wrongly invoked.
JONES:
Good to talk to you. Thank you for your time Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
JONES:
That's the Prime Minister of Australia John Howard.
[ends]