MITCHELL:
First in the studio, the Prime Minister Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL:
Petrol prices. Suggestions they're unfairly high. What will you do?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they are high, a bit higher now than normal because there's been a surge in the world price because of problems in Iran and Nigeria. According to the best information we have from the ACCC there is not some kind of seasonally adjusted, holiday conspiracy by the oil companies to lift the price. Now that's what the ACCC tell us and they are the experts on this subject. If we were persuaded otherwise, well we would endeavour to do something about it; we would do something about it. But I know it's of no comfort for me to say this, and I telegraph that in advance, but a recent world energy report indicated that Australian fuel prices were the fourth lowest amongst the OECD countries, due mainly to our lower than average fuel taxes, and I know nobody will find that believable but it is true on an international comparison. And the OECD also shows that Australia's energy costs rose at a much slower rate than both the OECD average and countries including Britain, America, Canada and New Zealand. Now I say all of that, it's of no comfort with high oil prices, but to try and underscore the point that this is a world problem and the price of fuel is high in Australia because it's high around the world because of the high level of crude oil pricing.
MITCHELL:
Will you ask the ACCC formally to monitor prices?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they have been doing that since 1998. They have been monitoring. I mean they keep telling us what I have just said. Naturally I will go back to them in the light of what's been claimed and alleged in the recent past, but until now they have always put the view to us, and the oil companies naturally agree with it, that there isn't this conspiracy to kick up the price when Easter comes along or the Queen's Birthday weekend comes along.
MITCHELL:
Let's just get that clear. You will ask them now.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I will. I will ask them again to have a look at it. They probably are anyway, but I certainly will.
MITCHELL:
Okay, now the other thing is your Government's suddenly getting green. Are you really concerned about the orange-bellied parrot?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I've read the decision which was taken by the Minister and he said it was based on a report which said that this species faced extinction and that's the reason he's given and that's his responsibility.
MITCHELL:
The greenies tell me it's more likely to get eaten by a cat than hit by a turbine.
PRIME MINISTER:
It seems that this Government can never do anything to please the Greens and I don't necessarily weep about that because the extreme Green position is a very unrealistic position and I don't think anybody could accuse me of having that. But Senator Campbell gave his reasons and certainly having read his statement and I don't know a lot more about it than that, it seemed to be properly based on an examination. If you're going to have a policy and you're going to have an approach which does protect endangered species and from time to time decisions will be taken that people won't like.
MITCHELL:
Okay, well the Victorian Government says they'll fight you in court. Will you see it through?
PRIME MINISTER:
I see no reason why not, no. The Victorian Government says that, does it? Well I think the Victorian Government should remember, what was it, a couple of years ago, Mr Hulls banned something because of the wedge tail.
MITCHELL:
It was also turbines.
PRIME MINISTER:
Anyway, I'm just making the point that the Victorian Government is perhaps talking out of both sides of its mouth on the subject.
MITCHELL:
What about the moth? The federal thing...
PRIME MINISTER:
The moth?
MITCHELL:
You're going to stop a residential development at Melton because of a moth. It's a golden sun...
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not aware of that. Who is stopping it?
MITCHELL:
You are.
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm stopping it?
MITCHELL:
Well no, your Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
My Minister is?
MITCHELL:
Ian Campbell is. The golden sun moth which spends four days of its life above ground, I can tell you, after two years underground, is apparently endangered and there's a $400 million development out there at risk because of that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I will investigate that. He hasn't taken any decision has he?
MITCHELL:
No, he's considering whether the future of the moth is jeopardised. But it's a very green approach.
PRIME MINISTER:
I'll take an interest in that. Well I think the one in relation to the wind farm development did involve a rather more precise and substantial report which indicated that a particular species was at risk. The moth sounds a little, how shall we put it, more far fetched.
MITCHELL:
It's a very rare moth.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I know. But I will take an interest in that moth.
MITCHELL:
And then still on green issues, which is unusual for me, but six companies, six major companies, saying they want you to do more on greenhouse gas.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I read that report. You can't do more on greenhouse gas until you get the biggest polluters in the world inside the tent and the biggest polluters in the world are America and China. And one of the advantages of this Asia Pacific Partnership which we put together is that it brings America and China into contact with the process. And I don't disagree with the analysis that's been made by those six companies. I would suggest, in case they're making this point, that signing up to Kyoto is not going to help because China and America aren't part of Kyoto in the way that we would be. China is, but China doesn't have any obligations and if we sign Kyoto in its present form it would be more attractive for investment to leave Australia and go to China or Indonesia. Now I'm not going to do that because that would export Australian jobs.
MITCHELL:
Why will we not use nuclear power in this country?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there's no prohibition in my view on using it. At the moment it's not economically attractive enough to do so but my philosophy is that if it became economically attractive, I would not oppose it any more than I oppose the export of uranium.
MITCHELL:
Well I was going to say, if you export uranium to China, you're still going to create the same waste that you would with power.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you can't say it's all right for other countries to use nuclear power made possible by our uranium, but we would never contemplate having nuclear power in this country. I would. At the moment it's not as attractive economically, but if it were to become then this country should certainly look at it. And I would not stand in the way if I were satisfied that it were economically feasible, provided all the safeguards were there. This is going to come around the world. It's been around the world for a long time. We've gone through a funny phase. There was a lot of it in the 1970s. It was all the rage in the late 70s and then I suppose because of Chernobyl and *Five Mile Island and those other things, it because a lot less fashionable or attractive and of course since then the Soviet Union has collapsed and that event altered the framework of the debate.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, are you concerned by the abuse of human rights in West Papua?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'd be concerned about the abuse of human rights anywhere in the world and I guess no country is free of human rights abuses, but I do not think it serves anybody's interests for us to encourage, in any way, the fragmentation of Indonesia. That's why I've taken such a strong stand and why I sent such a strong message to the people of West Papua. Do not imagine for a moment that we want you to come to Australia.
MITCHELL:
Why not if they've been tortured and put in jail for burning their flag?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the better solution, well if you encourage a process of fragmentation of the Republic of Indonesia you're going to end up with a lot more turmoil and inevitably human rights abuses and depravation of liberty than would otherwise be the case. The best hope for the people of Indonesia is to continue the transition to democracy and you have to be realistic about what can be achieved. Indonesia is an infinitely better, freer, better more democratic country now than it's been at any time since it was founded in 1946. And their current President is the best President they've had, and he offers the best hope for a stable prosperous future. Now it's all very well to theorise about defection, that's unachievable, and people who are encouraging disaffection and insurrection in West Papua are not in the long term helping either those people or this country. That doesn't mean to say that everything there is terrific, I think it's improved a great deal, I think if there are areas of concern left, they are less than what they used to be.
MITCHELL:
But is there abuse of human rights in West Papua?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well people allege there's abuse of human rights and obviously when those independent decision makers in the Department of Immigration made a decision in relation to those 42 people they believed they fell within the protection provisions under our international obligations. I don't have direct knowledge, I do know there's been a significant improvement. As to whether it is still satisfactory or not, it is difficult for me to make a judgement.
MITCHELL:
What is more important to us, our relationship with Indonesia or an issue of morality on what's happening in that country?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the two can never be totally separated because if Indonesia fragments there won't be a lot of morality left in the ensuing mayhem. When a country begins to fall apart, excesses occur and we know that, with the best will in the world. The best thing that can happen is for the Government of Indonesia to continue the process of giving effect to the local autonomy arrangements in West Papua, and Indonesia is more likely to do that if it receives the support and the encouragement of the world, not the continued harassment of the world.
MITCHELL:
Is it fair to put people in jail for 15 years for flying the wrong flag?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, if that has happened, I don't think that is fair, but there are a lot of things in a lot of countries around the world that aren't fair. There a lot of things...
MITCHELL:
This is our doorstep, a country we have affinity with here.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes it is on our doorstep and that makes the issue all the more difficult on both sides of the argument. Of course, it's unfair for somebody to go to jail for 15 years for flying the wrong flag. There are things that happen in China that I don't agree with. There are things that happen in many countries of the world that I don't agree with. That doesn't mean to say we shouldn't take a broad, reasonably hard-headed approach about what is in this country's best interests and also in the best interests of a longer-term relationship. Democratising Indonesia and reaching out to Indonesia and giving Indonesia praise and support as she goes down the path of democratisation is more likely to produce a stable, prosperous, democratic Indonesia than constantly saying well, you're not as good as you should be and we're going to continue to harass you. That's, I believe, what a good neighbour and a good friend, but not an uncritical friend, should do.
MITCHELL:
But is Indonesia behaving like a friend. We seem to have done nothing wrong, we seem to have followed some degree of morality and law and they're trying to bully us?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they're not succeeding with....
MITCHELL:
Are they trying to bully us?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't believe they're trying to bully us. I believe that was has happened is that there's been a lot of internal criticism of the Indonesian Government as part of a democratic process for not reacting strongly enough to the Australian decision regarding the 43 people who were given protection visas. And there's a bit of domestic politics occurring and I think there are things being said about Australia by the Indonesian Government for domestic political consumption, and we should in a sense welcome that because it shows that the democratic process and the partisan political process is working inside Indonesia. This is a very hard issue.
MITCHELL:
But aren't we, in fact, training these same soldiers that are going in to West Papua and doing the things about which we wouldn't approve?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, that's an exaggeration of the nature of the military contact we now have. Sharing military contact with Indonesia does not involve training people to commit human rights atrocities. We have got to be very careful that we don't allow ourselves to be pushed in to a knee-jerk response to every single thing that happens in Indonesia and thereby lose our capacity to influence through a good relationship what might be achieved.
MITCHELL:
We'll take a break, come back with more from the Prime Minister, 96961278.
[commercial break]
MITCHELL:
The Prime Minister's with me. Mr Howard, there's an Aboriginal protest going on in Kings Domain, the public park here in Melbourne, where they've set up a camp and nobody seems to know what to do. Now given your experience with the tent embassy in Canberra, the Aboriginal embassy in Canberra, what do you think should be done if Aborigines just occupy a public park?
PRIME MINISTER:
It should be dealt with quickly. If it's left, and the Canberra experience is instructive, it stays. And I don't think that sort of thing should be allowed. I can understand why people didn't want to make an incident about it during the Commonwealth Games, that's just commonsense, but the Canberra tent embassy was left for years and then the longer it's left, the harder and harder it becomes to do anything about it. And even people who originally think it's a silly idea and shouldn't be allowed say 'oh well it's been there and it's going to cause trouble and it's going to interfere with the process of reconciliation,' which is not a very reasonable proposition. There isn't a lot of support in the indigenous community for the tent embassy people in Canberra, but whenever there's an attempt made to get rid of it, the local ACT Government, which has very politically correct views on these sorts of things, let me put it that way, kicks up a stink and people say it's terrible. It's a matter obviously for the Melbourne City Council and the Victorian Government but the longer it is left, the more difficult it will become to do anything about it.
MITCHELL:
It's a bit inconsistent isn't it, one law for the white, one for the black. If the young Liberals set up camp there they'd be...
PRIME MINISTER:
Or young Labor or anybody for that matter, that would be interesting. But it is, it is inconsistent and these are the sorts of things that really set back the cause of reconciliation because it's the unacceptable face, in a way, of reconciliation. The sensible face is where you cooperate to try and remedy wrongs and help people become part of the community in the fullest possible sense.
MITCHELL:
Hello Paul, go ahead please Paul.
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Howard. I was listening to your comments earlier Mr Howard about petrol and quite frankly I think you're insulting the intelligence of the Australian people. Petrol prices for as long as I can remember have always gone up around major holidays, whether it be Easter, Christmas, long weekends and every year we get the same spiel of world petrol prices and pressure on world petrol prices and that's either the greatest coincidence that's ever occurred or we're having the wool pulled over our eyes?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm reporting what has been the results of the examination carried out by the experts and I said to Neil that I'd have another look at it in the light of the latest complaints. I would gently point out to you that at Easter time people do use their cars a lot more, they travel further distances and there are some forces of supply and demand that operate, even when petrol prices are much lower.
MITCHELL:
$1.35 is going to hurt, isn't it? It's not only going to hurt people, it's going to hurt the economy isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it already has. If there had not been big increases in petrol prices the economy would be growing now more strongly than it is. It's still growing very strongly and I point out yesterday that we went back to 5 per cent unemployed which is a 30-year low. I mean, it's a fantastic employment market and in all the debate about industrial relations, the most significant news of the past week was actually yesterday's unemployment figures because what it demonstrates is that we are living in a workers' market and the bargaining power of workers now is greater than it's been at any time in the last 30 years.
JOURNALIST:
Is that going to, do you believe, put pressure on interest rates, those unemployment figures?
PRIME MINISTER:
It will only put pressure on interest rates if it feeds through to inflation and it will only feed through to inflation if there are excessive wage settlements and so far that hasn't been the tendency. It doesn't automatically follow that if unemployment falls, interest rates go up. Interest rates only go up if the falling unemployment leads to higher wages and that then feeds into inflation. But if that doesn't happen and the freer the labour market, the less likely it is to happen; if you have centralised, rigid, labour market which the Labor Party and the unions want. The flow-through effects are more direct and more immediate if you have a less regulated market; you don't get that same impact and you can in fact get the benefits of both continued low interest rates and continued low unemployment, or you ought to be able to. Nobody can guarantee levels of interest rates but it is more likely that the benign duo will emerge with a less-regulated labour market than a rigid one.
JOURNALIST:
Speaking of the industrial laws, the Industrial Relations Commission says secret ballots are probably unworkable. That's a key part of it isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well I don't agree with that. I mean the Industrial Relations Commission, and I am not being critical of them as individuals, but it does have somewhat lesser role in the new system and I think it's been a little knee jerk in its criticisms of these laws. We have been talking about secret ballots for a very long time and I don't think they are unworkable at all.
JOURNALIST:
I know you are not going to tell me what's in the Budget but do we expect some change in taxation?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I would be astonished if the subject were not mentioned in the Treasurer's speech but I don't think that's a particularly remarkable statement for me to make. We have always said that if we've got a good surplus and we've paid extra for defence and other things that we have to invest more in, I had a very big announcement on mental health during the week; we do those things and there's money left over, then it should go back to the taxpayer by way of tax relief.
JOURNALIST:
So we are in that situation aren't we, (inaudible)?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't have the final figures so I can't really, no I don't because we don't get the final figures until much closer to the event and that's the way it does work and we don't know how much room in which to move is available.
JOURNALIST:
It's your decision in the end I assume?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well with the Treasurer, I mean we obviously, of course I have a big input, I mean the final things like that are obviously decided between the Treasurer and myself and in discussion with our very senior colleagues such as the Deputy Prime Minister. It's not a dictatorship this government, it's a team effort.
JOURNALIST:
Have you read the statements from Mark Vaile and Alexander Downer to the inquiry?
PRIME MINISTER:
They sent them to me after they had lodged them and I've got them in my briefcase and I will have a look at them. I literally have not read them yet but they were sent to me after they were prepared and lodged with the Commission.
JOURNALIST:
Is there any doubt they will give evidence now?
PRIME MINISTER:
I will be surprised if they weren't called but that really is a matter for the process.
JOURNALIST:
Roger, go ahead please Roger.
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Prime Minister, keep up the good work and don't let them grind you down. I tell you what the main thing that's come out of this Indonesian problem is the people like your Browns and Kerry Nettles, they've been allowed to have some space or air to rant and rave like they normally do, but my concern is that the in the end the Australian people have a fantastic amount of love and good faith with Indonesians and over the last say two weeks, I would think that a lot of that reservoir is starting to (inaudible) very much with what is happening as far as boycotts and comments and things like that go.
JOURNALIST:
Well that's an interesting point you've made about the threat of boycotts.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I agree with Roger. There is a need for understanding and restraint on the Indonesian side. I made the comment a few days ago, that when there was huge outcry in Australia about Schapelle Corby's trial and her conviction, I appealed to the Australian public to respect the Indonesian justice system. Now that wasn't a very popular appeal at the time. Now, in a sense, the boot's on the other foot and there's a lot of criticism in Indonesia of our decision in relation to the 43, well I am asking the Indonesian people to understand and respect our processes. We have international obligations, we try and observe them, and there was a process and that process was followed which is exactly what I told President Yudhoyono would be the case. I know it's been an unsatisfactory outcome but it should not be seen as other than the working out of our process and not some diplomatic strike against Indonesia, not some expression of disapproval of Indonesia, but an adjudication in relation to the individual cases of 43 people.
JOURNALIST:
Prime Minister the poll shows 53 per cent for you 29 per cent Kim Beazley, what's your reaction to that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well is this the latest, I haven't seen the poll?
JOURNALIST:
Newspoll, yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I don't get excited about those things, I've been at every point on the radar screen when it comes to polls in my political career.
JOURNALIST:
Well you must have time to enjoy them, really.
PRIME MINISTER:
I never want to get too carried away with those polls, you know they can turn around and Liberals shouldn't do so.
JOURNALIST:
Thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]
* Three Mile Island