BARTLETT:
First up this morning on the eve of his 10th anniversary in office, the Prime Minister John Howard joins us from our Parliament House studios in Canberra. Prime Minister good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Liam.
BARTLETT:
How are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I am very well, good to be on your program again. I was over in your state only a few days ago, it looked in great shape as always.
BARTLETT:
Congratulations on your decade at the top.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well thank you for that. It's congratulations of course due to a team, it's not just a milestone for John Howard, it's a milestone for the Coalition and for all of those people who contributed, particularly the three National Party leaders, Tim Fischer, John Anderson and Mark Vaile and in the Liberal team, especially Peter Costello, who's done a truly magnificent job as Treasurer and Deputy Leader and also Alexander Downer, who has been a great Foreign Minister and whose grace under a lot of difficulty and pressure 11 years ago, enabled the leadership issue to be resolved in a harmonious fashion, in a way that laid the foundation for our victory in '96.
BARTLETT:
I was thinking, if they're going to present you with a plaque commemorating your decade in office, I was wondering if they also have a sort of supplementary plaque for Peter Costello, for the world's most patient politician.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I won't get into patience or otherwise, we all have our qualities, and he's got a lot of outstanding qualities, and one of them is that he's done a fantastic job as the economic spokesman for the Government and has contributed enormously as part of the team.
BARTLETT:
We were talking, Prime Minister, on the program on Monday, about The Howard Factor, the book that's being published by Melbourne University Press to mark these 10 years. I was wondering, you know young people in Australia, who are turning 18 this year, able to vote for the first time this year, were just eight years old when you first became PM. It's incredible when you think about it like that isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is the case with anybody who has been in power for a long period of time. I remember Bob Menzies, as he then was, was elected in 1949, I was just 10 years old, and he was Prime Minister from the time I was 10 through until the time I was 27. Now that was a very significant chunk of my life and it's not surprising that I saw him as an extraordinary figure and somebody who had a great influence on Australia over that period of time. It is a long period of time.
BARTLETT:
What do you think those young people would think of your tenure? I mean what's their legacy?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the indications are that we get our fair share of support from young people and young people are different now from what they were a generation ago, but not that different. Young people are interested in economic opportunity, they are more prone to take advantage of choice, they're not people who take the attitude that you've got to stay in one job. My experience with young people now is they move from job to job a lot more readily than people of my age or younger did. I'm always surprised talking to some of my children's friends about how regularly they change jobs, something that would probably fill their parents with horror. But that's a symptom of the era; it's an options generation. You can leave everything to the very last minute if you're a young person now and that influences their lives and it's a function of communications, it's a function of the different choices and opportunities that people have now and political parties have got to be alive to this and not imagine that institutions that might have served them a generation ago continue to do so.
BARTLETT:
And after 10 years in office what do you think the public most closely associate with you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's always hard because you're asking me to make a personal judgment. I think they associate two things in particular with this Government. The successful management of the economy and the defence of Australia in its broadest sense, national security, strong military forces.....
BARTLETT:
When people think of John Howard as PM they think defence and economy?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think they believe that we as a Government have been very strong on those issues. I think they also associate the Government with a series of values and attitudes, they see us as a Government that believes in enterprise, a Government that believes very much in the family as the stabilising unit of our society, as a Government that believes very strongly in a nation that's drawn from the four corners of the world as far as population is concerned but ought to be united behind a common set of Australian values. They're the sort of things that we have been consistent about over the last 10 years.
BARTLETT:
Prime Minister if you'll indulge us for a moment, I want to get your response on this, before we put the association test to just a quick random selection of Perth people this morning and our reporter Justine Kelly has hit the streets in the city and asked what was the first thing that came to mind at the mention of John Howard after 10 years and this is what she found.
Compere plays vox pop for one minute and 30 seconds.
BARTLETT:
An all-round good bloke.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I like the last one. I'll settle for that Liam, but that's a cross section, and if you get a fair percentage, that's as much as you can hope for. Anybody who thinks that you can walk out onto a street in Australia and get a litany of praise when you've been Prime Minister for 10 years is kidding himself. It's just the nature of the game isn't; people spontaneously express their views. None of that surprised me.
BARTLETT:
And I suppose it gets harder too, the 11th year, or the 12th year, or the 13th, I mean it gets harder, as the incumbency gets longer, doesn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes and no. There are some things that you get better at the longer you're there and one of the big challenges of politics is people management, working closely with people, I think you do require more people skills the older you get and those skills are very important.
BARTLETT:
If you would like to talk to the PM, give us a ring 1300 222 720. Prime Minister, Alexander Downer has admitted that he knew of these concerns over AWB paying kickbacks, being raised some six years ago, despite that the practice continued. Who was asleep at the wheel do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't accept anybody was. Alexander dealt with this issue in Parliament last year. What happened, and these cables verify this, what happened was the Canadian Wheat Board, which represents Canadian wheat growers, complained to the United Nations. The United Nations inquired of our mission in New York, our mission in New York came back to Canberra and then went back to the UN and it came back again. And finally, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade got the relevant contracts from AWB Limited and gave them to the United Nations and explained themselves. And the United Nations expressed themselves as being satisfied that the misperception, that was the expression used in the cable, had been removed. Now in those circumstances I think nobody had been asleep at the wheel. Sure, now that we know a lot of things we didn't know then, people are saying oh you should have asked this, you should have done that but that's hindsight and we'd all like to have that in every situation. You have to look at what happened in the context...
BARTLETT:
Are you saying AWB snowed the Government? Snowed the Diplomats?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have the difficulty that I can't make a final judgement about AWB Limited until the Commissioner has finished his inquiry and we've heard all the evidence. But clearly on the evidence to date, the company misled a lot of people, including the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the United Nations. But I have to say again, we need to wait until the inquiry has finished and we've heard everybody and the commissioner has made his findings, and his findings include a capacity to make findings of fact in relation to the knowledge of the Commonwealth and the role of the Commonwealth and that includes the department and it includes Ministers.
BARTLETT:
And yet so far, in the entire inquiry, there's not been one single witness from your government that's appeared before it. Why not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Liam, don't ask me that, I'm not running the inquiry, that's a matter for Mr Cole and he has indicated that having taken evidence from AWB Limited, he will then turn to taking evidence from people in the Government.
BARTLETT:
But he's running out of time, isn't he?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, look, I can assure you if he wants more time he can have it and if he wants wider terms of reference he can have that. With respect Liam, don't ask me about the conduct of the inquiry, he's doing it independently of the Government.
BARTLETT:
It's getting a bit embarrassing though.
PRIME MINISTER:
The last thing I would do, is presume to tell him how to conduct an inquiry and I have no intention of doing that.
BARTLETT:
Have a look at this latest stuff that's coming out about how much you paid Trevor Flugge, the former chairman, I mean you paid a bloke almost a million dollars tax free, for less than a year's work, that's big money, that's big money Prime Minister for a bloke who has a terrible memory, can't hear too well and says he's not especially good at deal making.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I didn't know and nobody knew any of those things when it was decided to recommend him for appointment. What we were concerned about was to have somebody in that position who could give good leadership and advice to the agricultural industry in Iraq and also at the same time look after the interests of Australian wheat growers and make sure that we didn't lose our markets unreasonably to the Americans or the Canadians.
BARTLETT:
Well speaking of markets, what can you tell the many hundreds of wheat farmers, who are listening this morning around country WA, does this mean the end of their single desk, or not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not necessarily. I know that there are a lot of wheat growers in Western Australia, who would like to see the single desk go, not all of them. Clearly we can't make a decision about the single desk and we specifically can't make a decision about the role of AWB Limited in the single desk, until the inquiry is completed and we've got the findings and the Government has responded.
We would not get rid of the single desk unilaterally. It would be foolish of Australia to give up the single desk unless we got something very big in return in the context of world trade negotiations. There's very divided opinion on the single desk. There appears to be stronger support for getting rid of the single desk in Western Australia, than some other parts of the country, but it's not uniform. I was in Western Australia last week and I learnt that it's not uniform, but there's strong support for it. A number of my colleagues from Western Australia such as Wilson Tuckey, a long standing opponent of the single desk, one or two of my colleagues from Western Australia, who have wheat growing areas in their electorates who aren't so opposed to the single desk. It's very mixed and the Government has to take a decision on this issue very carefully and not be stampeded into a decision in the context of AWB.
Clearly, we can't sell any wheat to Iraq through AWB while the inquiry is going on. That has been made very clear and that's why Mr Vaile went to Iraq and we're working on alternative arrangements in relation to that. But in the long run, the issue of the single desk has to be kept separate from what happens to AWB Limited.
BARTLETT:
Let's get some feedback from our listeners, Garry is first up.
CALLER:
Look congratulations on your 10 years in a very difficult environment, that's well done. I don't always agree with everything you've done and all your decisions regarding following American trends and things like that, but I would say that basically I think you're a man of integrity and good Christian values and I commend you for that. So that's all I've got to say.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well thank you. Can I just say one thing about America. I don't actually follow American trends and a lot of aspects of American culture I don't like. I rail a bit against the Americanisation of the Australian language and I try by my own expressions to keep Americanisms out of it. I cringe when I hear people adopting expressions, I mean every time I see the world lifeguard, I mean that's come from American television, I thought they were lifesavers. I know somebody will now tell me there's this technical difference between a lifeguard and a lifesaver but we always called them lifesavers.
BARTLETT:
You haven't been watching too much Baywatch have you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I did watch it, well my kids, in particular my two sons loved Baywatch and I watched it a lot and I know exactly where it comes; but I mean I don't like it, I think those sort of things about America, I mean they can call them lifeguards but we call them something else. But having said that my view about the American alliance is that it's in Australia's long term defence and national security interest to be close to the United States. The United States will remain in my view, forever the strongest economy in the world, and continue to grow and it's in our interest to be part of that. And this is hard-headed self interest for Australia, it's not slavish pro-Americanism.
BARTLETT:
What about exporting our language? These new tourism ads......
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah I saw them, I have to say, look I understand some people are sensitive about them and I'm not a person who would easily use even an expression like that, certainly not in public. But I do think that particular expression has gone beyond being offensive. It's not in the same category as other expressions that I think you know what I'm referring to, that are vulgar and offensive to a lot of people and I saw the ad and I think it's a good ad. I think the image presented, it's clean, authentic, believable; an orthodox presentation of Australia plays to our strengths, our openness, good environment, beaches, what's wrong with that?
BARTLETT:
We'll move on, Garry thanks for your call. Hello Adam.
CALLER:
I would just like to congratulate you Prime Minister on 10 years of great, outstanding (inaudible) stability to the country. I admire your strength and leadership, I think one thing politicians can easily get caught up in vote counting and also poll watching, I know you don't do that. I think your strength of decision making has held some great stead for the country.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well thank you very much Adam. I have to confess I do watch polls, I think anybody in my position who says he doesn't follow polls is not being completely upfront. But I am willing to take stands that are unpopular, at least in the short term and I have done that on occasions. The GST wasn't popular when we first proposed it, I don't think at any time there was majority support for us going into Iraq, but I'm always arguing the case.
BARTLETT:
Adam thanks for calling. Hello (inaudible).
CALLER:
Hello Prime Minister, I would like to ask two questions, one in regards to external relations, international relations and the other in regards to internal relations. External relations, would you support a policy of, a diplomatic policy of good relations in all directions? I think in particular the USA, Indonesia and the Arab nations and secondly on the question of internal relations, poverty in Australia. I'm the secretary of the Australian Multicultural Union Incorporated which is a low income earners association, are you aware that six million people on social security in Australia, that's nearly a third of the population, earning less than $285 a week, and this is causing a great deal of social and economic antagonism, leading to crime and disharmony in the community generally and what would you propose can be done about this?
PRIME MINISTER:
On your first question, generally speaking, I'm in favour of being friendly with as many countries who want to be friendly with us and I have tried as Prime Minister not only to build an ever-closer relationship with countries like the United States, but also develop close relations with China. I'm going to India at the weekend, and as far as Indonesia is concerned, we have developed a very close relationship with Indonesia and after the tsunami, the most generous donor anywhere in the world was Australia. In nominal terms, we're only just behind the United States and when you adjust the population difference, we were infinitely more generous than any other countries. As a general proposition, yes, but the world is not perfect and it does come a time when you have to take a diplomatic position that people don't always support.
I mean for example, you mention the Arab counties, some of the stances that we have taken in support of Israel have not been supported by Arab countries. We haven't set out to be antagonistic to Arab countries, it's just that we support Israel's right to exist. Iran doesn't and over the years other Arab counties have been very hostile to Israel; hopefully we're moving ever so slowly towards some kind of resolution of the long running dispute between Israel and the Palestinians and I applaud the attempts being made on both sides to narrow the gap. It will be challenging to see how Hamas reacts to the new responsibility. There's tentative signs that they will talk to the Israelis and that's good.
Am I aware of poverty within Australia, I'm a little querulous about those figures you used. Yes, I am aware, I'm also aware that our Family Tax Benefit system, for example, has been more advantageous to low income families, including particular single income families, than it has to higher income earners. And all of the figures that analyse wealth distribution in Australia show that the rich have not got richer, with the poor getting poorer over the last 10 years. It is true that the rich have got richer, everybody has got a little richer, we have become a wealthier country. But the relative position of the low income groups has not deteriorated and there's some evidence that it has improved.
BARTLETT:
Thanks for your call. Hello Barry.
CALLER:
Morning. Mr Howard you're entitled to the pension bonus scheme. Have you been to Centrelink and signed on?
PRIME MINISTER:
You are obviously looking at it.
CALLER:
No, I'm not looking at your retirement....
PRIME MINISTER:
No. No. I'm talking about the pension bonus scheme, you know about it, a lot of people don't. What it basically does is the longer you stay in the workforce when you go on the pension you get a bigger pension. It's a terrific scheme.
CALLER:
Yeah, well I've got 5 years on the 19th of April.
PRIME MINISTER:
And I'm not looking to take advantage of it. Beg your pardon?
CALLER:
I get mine on the 19th of April and you're entitled, you're entitled.
PRIME MINISTER:
How long have you been, I mean, may I ask seeing you raised it, how old are you?
CALLER:
Sixty nine. I'm seventy on the 19th of April.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good on you, that's fantastic.
CALLER:
And I stayed on because of your dough. And I tell you what John I'll be laughing all the way to the bank with it and I hope it don't give you a bit of headache. Alright?
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay. Good luck. Have a happy 19th of April and 70th birthday.
CALLER:
Thank you.
BARTLETT:
Thanks Barry. You oldies have got stick together don't you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Next question.
BARTLETT:
Yes. Hello Phil.
CALLER:
Yeah G'day Liam and Mr Howard. Mr Howard I'm wondering if you're going to do anything about the fortnightly pensions. I mean I'll use an example, the single disability pension $490 a fortnight or $494 and a minimum weekly wage is $484 a week, so it's a long way different to the fortnightly pension and I think I heard you right when you were talking to a bloke a couple of callers ago about people on lower incomes that are better off. That's not quite true. You try and live on a fortnightly pension these days mate, you just couldn't do it, especially when you first go onto the pension and in my case it was back in 1984 or thereabouts, I had nothing in the bank and I've had to live on what the pension has been all the way along, and you try and tell me that its getting easier to live these days. You've got no idea mate.
PRIME MINISTER:
Barry is it?
CALLER:
Phil.
PRIME MINISTER:
Phil, sorry Phil. Look, I'm not suggesting it's easy.
CALLER:
Prices are increasing all the time mate. There's petrol. I've got a car that runs on premium petrol which is dearer than unleaded, about 6 or 7 cents a litre dearer and I can't do nothing about that because I have no way of buying another car and there's not just that, there's medical expenses, there's veterinary expenses if you've got pets. There's electricity, it all mounts up mate. It might seem cheap to you but it all mounts up when you're on a fortnightly pension and I'm only using my example. There's plenty of people in the same boat. And I've written to your people in Canberra, you probably don't even get to read the letters.
BARTLETT:
You want to respond to that Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't suggest for a moment that it's easy living on the pension. And I do understand that prices go up. I've never said that things are getting dramatically different, but what I have said is that relatively speaking, if you look at the figures, I mean obviously we have to look at individual cases and we also have to look at the whole community, but the safety net for people in your position has been maintained and in some areas has been strengthened. I mean for example not only do we index the pension every 6 months according to cost of living increases but early in our term we brought in another stipulation that it should never be less than 25 percent of male total average earnings. Now, you will say to me that's still only 25 percent, that's true, but I don't think any country can afford a situation where the pension is the same as the average wage, we just, no country has aspired to do that and I'm not suggesting for a moment Phil that your position is easy. I do understand particularly the impact of increases in petrol prices. I am very sensitive to that and it's not something that we can alter because the petrol prices in Australia are governed by world circumstances.
CALLER:
Yeah, well I don't quite agree with that but...
BARTLETT:
Phil, we'll have to leave it there I'm sorry. Thanks very much for calling.
BARTLETT:
Okay. Prime Minister we're running out of time unfortunately. How did you find our new Premier Alan Carpenter by the way?
PRIME MINISTER:
We had a perfectly friendly, civil discussion. I took him as a man who wanted to work with the Federal Government. I'll do that, I'll go half way. The fact that he's Labor and I'm Liberal is immaterial to me in the context of our dealings with each other as Prime Minister and Premier. My job is to look after the interests of people who live in Western Australia and so is he, to the extent that we can agree on things, that will be good. I thought the last...
BARTLETT:
Prime Minister, we'll have to leave it there unfortunately.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay.
[ends]