MCKENZIE:
Mr Howard, good morning and welcome once again.
PRIME MINISTER:
It's very nice to be back. Good to see you.
MCKENZIE:
Can I just get you... oh, I see we've got cameras there, we'll leave that microphone where it is and we'll move on. Look this is an interesting situation, you were here in North Queensland, actually you've up there to Hope Vale and I saw that on television last night. Of course, the household name in North Queensland these days is our Matty Bowen. I understand you got together with him up there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I did, I met him, I met his parents and his two grandmothers, so it was quite a family gathering. He's a great local hero, he's a great player and I'd seen him in the dressing room on the night of the Grand Final and I'd seen him play in that first State of Origin match at Lang Park which was a great performance.
MCKENZIE:
He's wonderful to watch, isn't he?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah he is, he's a nice bloke and he's a great example to indigenous young people - not only in Hope Vale but all around the country. And it was a real delight to see him with his Mum and Dad and grandmothers.
MCKENZIE:
I think a lot of the North Queenslanders too will take great heart from what the Mayor up there had to say yesterday to, but I'll get back to that in a little bit, from now, a little bit later. I want to talk firstly of course the IR reforms just before we take some of these questions coming in now. Firstly we've had people on this programme, parents of kids who are about to launch into a hospitality career. They're concerned about how the hell they're going to sit down with an employer and sort out an effective contract because they'll find the whole process very intimidating, of course the employer being in a very strong position of power. Can you just work through this in language we're all going to understand, particularly for those parents listening in this morning?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you won't be alone. If you want to take somebody with you, you can take your father or your big brother or the local solicitor or the local priest or anybody. It's written into the law that anybody negotiating a workplace agreement is entitled to have a bargaining agent, and that bargaining agent can be anybody. And a person under the 18, under the age of 18, any work agreement that person signed has to be endorsed by his or her parent or guardian. So they are the initial safeguards that are built into the existing system. Many people of course going into the industries you speak of, they will be covered by awards. The union will, if they belong to a union, or even if they don't belong to a union, a union having coverage in the area would do the negotiating. But we've got to have a system that doesn't just assume that in every situation every employer is going to rip off every young kid, that's an insult to the great bulk of people in this country who try and do the right thing. But there are safeguards that are built into it. I don't pretend for a moment that every employer is an angel, anymore than we should imagine that every employee in this country believes in a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. The majority in both cases, the overwhelming majority do. Most Australian employees do the right thing by their boss because they know that if they do that, the firm does better and their job security is there. And equally most employers do the right thing by their workers because the workers are their most valuable asset.
MCKENZIE:
My concern is parents who say to me I've never been able to sit down and sort through any sort of conditions, you know any bargaining on conditions successfully with my employer, why should things change now when it's going to put the employer in an even strong position?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well John, right at the moment we have workplace agreements where direct bargaining takes place. It's not as if we're introducing it for the very first time. We only have 23 per cent of the workplace belonging to a union. It's less than 20 per cent for the private sector. Now doesn't that say that millions of Australian workers feel that they can, in different ways, get by without belonging to a union? If they want to belong to a union and they want everything done by the union, that's fine we're not going to stop that.
MCKENZIE:
I want to look at the figures there, page one of the Australian today, these are the Newspoll figures just out, it shows Labor up on 54 per cent, I was astounded by this, Coalition back to 46. I know you don't worry specifically about those polls, you say they come and go. But there has been a major fall in support for your Government in this survey. Now with that slump in support, you've got perhaps the environment where Senator Barnaby Joyce is already lukewarm about these reforms, might actually choose to vote against it in the Senate.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm not going to speculate about how Barnaby, or indeed anybody else, votes. We have put forward a proposal, it's been very carefully discussed in the broad outline by our Party Room and the Bill itself will be presented to the Party Room next week. And I will be arguing that everybody support it. Now the question of how individuals vote is a matter for them and there's nothing to be gained by my speculating, except to say this that industrial relations reform has been something that the Liberal and National Parties all over the country have believed in for a very long time. And these reforms are ones that I am very committed to. I knew that when we launched them that a fear campaign would be waged, it's always easier to scare people with a negative than enthuse them with a positive. It's always easier, particularly when things are good in this country, conditions are good and somebody comes along and says 'Howard wants to take it all away'. Well Howard doesn't want to do anything of the kind.
MCKENZIE:
I think people perceive that themselves, without any campaign. You've got a figure here on page one of the The Australian today, a paltry 11 per cent think that they will be better off under the new system. Now this is after some weeks of this incredibly intense campaign, up to what, I don't know $30 million or whatever...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well half that.
MCKENZIE:
They're still not coming around.
PRIME MINISTER:
John, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating with this, as it is with so many big reforms. I think there will be some in the community who will have reservations until they experience it. And when they experience it and they find that their living standards have not been cut, they find that their kids actually have better opportunities to get jobs, they find that a lot of people will be able to get a greater reward for the effort they put in at their workplace, they will look back on this period of time and they will say 'heavens what was all the fuss about?' Because we had the same fear campaign when we changed the law in '96, when the GST was brought, remember that fear campaign?
MCKENZIE:
Yes, I remember it well. Very different circumstances.
PRIME MINISTER:
If I had reacted to every opinion poll on that, we'd have never had tax reform.
MCKENZIE:
What if, what if it doesn't live up to your image, your beliefs, you're expectations? Would you be prepared, even before the next election, to make some modifications, minor or major?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well John I believe it will. It is a counsel of sort of, how shall I put it, of weak compromise to say oh well look, you know, I think maybe it won't and therefore I'll... I mean I wouldn't introduce it if I had any doubts about it. I believe that it will be a very good change and I believe that in six months time, eight months time people will look back on this period and say what was all the fuss about?
MCKENZIE:
Now we'll take some callers on the open line, that number 4031 1846. First up we have Mark talking with the Prime Minister. Mark, you're talking with John Howard. Are you there Mark?
CALLER:
Hello Mr Howard, welcome to Cairns.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
CALLER:
Mr Howard I'm a conservative voter and I do have some concerns about the proposed legislation or proposed changes coming in, even though I do believe industrial changes need to be done. In your advertising, both paper and TV, there has been mention of a booklet, I think I understand a 60 or 80-page booklet outlining more details of these changes, is that correct?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes there has been, yes.
CALLER:
Right, well being a fair, concerned person wanting to know a little bit more I took up the offer of phoning the free call number, the 1800 number, to obtain a copy of this book. Now I made that exactly two weeks ago, around about this same time, I've checked my mailbox everyday and this booklet hasn't arrived and I hear on the radio yesterday that these changes are going to be brought into Parliament maybe next week. Am I going to receive this booklet after...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you should have received it by now, I can't tell you why that has happened. If you wanted to leave, off-air of course, your name and address with the station I will have inquiries made as to why you haven't got the booklet. Okay?
CALLER:
Well I was just concerned that if this happened to me, how many other people...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't know Sir, I don't know the answer to that.
CALLER:
And I would like to take up your offer of....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I would like to see that you get the booklet. I'm sorry this has occurred and we'll try and fix it.
CALLER:
But I did think two weeks was a fair time to...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's a very fair time. I will find out what happened and make sure you get a copy.
CALLER:
Righto, thank you very much.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
MCKENZIE:
We have the contact details there for Mark. David's on the line to talk with the Prime Minister. David, go ahead.
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Prime Minister. We operate a small hospitality business here in Cairns. We pay award rates down the line to mostly our young people that are working there. But there is already defacto changes in the awards scheme here in Cairns. The bulk of the people that we compete against either pay cash in hand - quite often to backpackers - not at award rates obviously, and we compete against firms like McDonalds that with their muscle were able to years ago get a special award that accommodates their business. We're in complete agreement that these changes need to be made and you know somebody needs to speak up for the small business people who are faced with this problem every day of the week.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm glad you support the changes. We see these changes as being very beneficial for small business, particularly the changes in relation to making it easier to enter into agreements, subject to the fair pay and conditions standard. And also the changes in relation to unfair dismissals. There's plenty of evidence that the existing unfair dismissal laws have literally frightened a lot of small businessmen out of taking on more staff, through fear they'd have to pay $20-30,000 go-away money for somebody who's clearly not doing the right thing by either the firm or his fellow workers.
CALLER:
The other issue Mr Prime Minister about the wages here in Cairns is that we're often forced, many of the hospitality people are forced to put up signs on holidays charging the customers 10 or 15 or 20 per cent more money because of the holiday rates that we're supposed to pay. This is extremely difficult to explain to tourists that come from other countries that don't have to do this because holiday and weekend pay is kind of a standard package in other workers' countries. And it makes it extremely difficult with such a tourist-centric business to explain that to customers that we're paying double-time and-a-half to 17-year-old kids to work in a hospitality business.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well our changes will stipulate that those issues are matters of negotiation. If they're not specifically mentioned in an agreement then the award provision, which provides for the time and a half or whatever, will prevail. And obviously if your employees are continuing to be on an award well the award conditions will apply in relation to that. We believe that these are matters that ought to be the subject of negotiation, and it does make a lot of sense that in seasonal, recreational, hospitality industries such as your own, a higher general rate of pay incorporating the loading is to be preferred, for one that provides as you have to at the present time. Now I think that does make a lot of sense, and when of course you have a higher general rate incorporating the loadings the person is no worse off, the employee that is.
CALLER:
Sure. Well keep up the good fight, Mr Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you very much.
MCKENZIE:
And David thanks for your call. We'll go straight to Bob now. Bob, you're talking with the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
Yes, Mr Howard. Yes, I believe these new rules you're bringing in are firmly putting the whip handle back in the hands of the employer. We have, and have had, some of the best conditions in the world. I believe you are rather rapidly degrading those conditions and the conditions of employment in Australia at the moment are such that the average person really has to battle to get a job, let alone keep one. I don't believe in the 5.8 per cent unemployed, most people would disagree with that and I can give the reasons if you like.
MCKENZIE:
No, just quickly to the Prime Minister for a response.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Bob, I respect your view, I don't share it. The facts are that real wages, under my term as Prime Minister, have gone up by almost 15 per cent, unemployment is at a 30-year low. The constant complaint I have from employers is the difficulty of obtaining staff, particularly good staff, skilled staff. We do live in a workers' market now like never before because of an ageing population there are a dwindling number of new workers coming into the workforce each year and conditions are starting to move, market conditions are starting to move quite significantly in favour of employees. Now that's no bad thing, although I obviously would like to see a reversal of the decline in our fertility rate, I think it is a bad thing that our population is beginning to age like all other populations and the only way we can effectively reverse that is to have more children. You won't solve it by migration, you will temporarily solve it by having greater workforce participation and that means older people, in particular, stay in the workforce as long as they want to, I'm not saying they should be forced to, but I do think a lot of people retire too early and regret it later. Now that's maybe not an incredibly popular thing to say in Cairns where a lot of people enjoy a wonderful lifestyle in their retirement. But there's also a lot of young people who live and work in this area and take advantage of the recreational hospitality industry. I have a rather more optimistic view, I respect yours and I know a lot of people hold your view, but I have no desire to drive down working conditions, why would I want to do that? Why would anybody in my position want to drive down the working conditions? The reason I'm in favour of these reforms is I think they will further strengthen our economy and in the end the best industrial relations system is the one that helps produce a strong economy because it's only a strong economy that will give people jobs and give people higher wages.
MCKENZIE:
Bob, I've got to move on, but thank you for your call. Prime Minister, if you happen to be among the ranks of the unemployed this title 'Workchoices' must seem rather ironic, can you talk to me how this is going to work? They will not really have the choice because they're going to lose what two months of unemployment...
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, they don't have that now, they don't have now John. If you don't try and get a job now when you're getting the unemployment benefit you run the risk of some penalty, that's been the case for a long time. Can I tell you, I believe most Australians think that if somebody is offered a job and providing the conditions of that job are reasonable and the minimum pay and conditions standard requires that you get paid at the hourly rate prescribed by the reward, requires that you get four weeks annual leave, requires maternity leave, requires sick leave, etcetera, all of these things are required, you can't have those things taken away from you. Now in those circumstances if somebody is on the unemployment benefit and say 'oh no, I'm not going to take that job and I'm not going to take the next one, I'm going to hold out til I get a job with a particular salary but in the meantime I expect to draw welfare', I don't think the majority of Australians agree with that, I think the majority of Australians take the view that it's better to be in work than on welfare. Don't they?
MCKENZIE:
Six per cent of these people who've been tuned in your advertising campaign, they say they've changed their mind about it, I mean there's a whopping mass of people out there who haven't changed their minds, who are still very dubious about it. Are you updating these commercials as you go, what do you intend to do? Or are you going to stick with the existing commercials?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they have been, like any set of commercials, they've been some changes along the way. But John, with something like this you are damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If you don't have some kind of public information campaign then you are criticised for not giving people information, then if you do have it people come along and say well it hasn't had any effect. I mean I don't know what the long term effect of the public information campaign will be at this stage, I think the evidence of reactions in the newspapers and so forth, I think they're all too superficial and too early. I go back to what I said at the beginning of the interview - the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We will not know for probably eight or 12 months the true public reaction to these changes because it will only be when they are experienced and people find out that all of this fear mongering is wrong that people will then get a true picture. And I fully expected when we brought these changes in that there would be criticism and the initial reaction would be of concern and doubt. That always happens with a big reform. It is easier to establish a negative than to assert a positive.
MCKENZIE:
From the Jon Faine programme in Melbourne last week, this talk about, there were 10 of them or so, these extras supposedly getting $6000 for an afternoon, didn't even appear in the ads. Did you get to the bottom of that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I did, I am told that the provision, I'm not sure of all of the details, but I'm told in relation to all of these things that it's governed by an award.
MCKENZIE:
God, there were any number of people ringing in saying I get $200 for that sort of thing...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's not something that was, as I understand it, it was governed by an industrial practice. But...
MCKENZIE:
Sounds obscene, doesn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I must say I asked for an inquiry to be made about it and I was a little taken aback, but I was told that it was the practice in the industry.
MCKENZIE:
And you're satisfied with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I'm still having some more inquiries made about it. But I am told that it was the industrial practice in the industry, that's what I was told.
MCKENZIE:
And you will let Australia know when you get the...
PRIME MINISTER:
I will, yes.
MCKENZIE:
Alright, we've got Ian on the line. Ian, you're talking with John Howard.
CALLER:
How you going John?
PRIME MINISTER:
How are you Ian?
CALLER:
Good mate. Look, I'm a conservative voter too and I really do believe we need a big shake up in industrial relations, but it's really not going to hit the people who have got the cushy jobs in the unions, the big workplaces are still protected, such as the public service. But I think you're going to have a hard time convincing people to get this through because when you introduced the GST you said the States would be reducing their stamp duty in the same way, amount as they're going to get the GST receipts, what states have done that, and I know for sure Queensland hasn't done it, in fact they're increasing their taxes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, a lot of the States, all of the States, have got rid of a certain number of taxes, they have, there's no doubt about that. And of course we also use the proceeds of the GST to get rid of the wholesale sales tax and we also provided very generous income tax cuts as well. The debate is about the timing of the abolition of the remainder of the taxes, and it's true that some States have talked about, and have introduced increases in other taxes. We can't, of course, ultimately control what they do in other areas but the bulk of the GST agreement regarding the abolition of the State taxes, such as on share transactions and certain stamp duties, the bulk of those commitments have been fulfilled, although there is debate about the timing of the removal of the remainder of the taxes that were included in the original agreement.
CALLER:
Yeah okay, they removed the taxes and so they've met the agreement, and then they start putting on more taxes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well some of them have, not all of them have done that.
CALLER:
Well they're doing it in Queensland.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm aware of that, I mean Queensland has no excuse for doing that because Queensland has done very well out of the GST. No state has done better out of the GST than Queensland and Mr Beattie has himself said that many things he's done in education he could not have done without the extra money from the GST.
CALLER:
Well maybe you can withhold the GST receipts to the States if they start increasing taxes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I would like to see the States honour their agreement, and I believe in working cooperatively with the States, providing they come half way.
CALLER:
Yeah, alright John.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good on you mate.
MCKENZIE:
We'll have to move on, and thank you for that call Ian. 4031 1846 if you've got a question for the Prime Minister. Let's go to page one of The Australian again, this has specific interest to North Queenslanders, you were in Hope Vale yesterday talking with the Mayor up there, Greg McLean, and I think a lot of people will take heart from his words. He made an impassioned plea for an end to sit-down money, he didn't think it was important to say sorry to North Queensland's Aboriginal, for past government practices, including the 'stolen generation' scandal. His words were "our community does not wish to dwell on it because we have moved on, we do not need you to say sorry for yesterday, we need your support for tomorrow, a better tomorrow." This is probably the most significant words I've heard from one of our local Aboriginal leaders in years.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I thought they were very good words, it's not that I'm insensitive about what happened in the past but I've had a view on a formal apology and there's no point in my going over that, everybody knows my position and it hasn't changed. I am very preoccupied though with the present and the future, and I was very encouraged by the focus that the Mayor had on individual achievement, individual reliance, getting off passive welfare. I mean it's interesting we were talking a moment ago about the option of somebody staying on welfare or taking a job, and there wasn't much doubt in my mind as I listened to the leaders in the Aboriginal communities that I spoke to yesterday what their view was. Their view was that if you've got the opportunity of a job that's infinitely better than being on welfare. Now I think that is a lesson for the entire community. And it's a message that is not only important to indigenous people, but it's also important to the rest of the country. And I think most Australians, when they reflect on it, would feel that. I found yesterday a great day because people were talking about practical solutions, they were talking about working together, they were talking about taking charge of their own lives, they were talking about children getting two meals a day, of getting breakfast and lunch at school. Now these things sound very simple and elementary to a lot of people, but if you're living in a community where that doesn't automatically happen where parents are neglectful, some parents are neglectful and children go to school on an empty stomach, they have no capacity to learn, they are lethargic, we know that from our own experience and they've got no hope of advancing in life unless they can get a decent education and a decent education means the use of the educational facilities already available, as much as it means making more facilities available, getting the truancy rates down, the attendance levels up.
MCKENZIE:
Look the State Government has been doing a hell of a lot with these alcohol management plans...
PRIME MINISTER:
Can I say I agree very strongly with the line being taken by the Queensland Government on alcohol management? And I think it's fair to say we are at one on this.
MCKENZIE:
But you wouldn't have seen the damage caused by generations of bad policy, of all levels of government up there, this almost intractable alcoholism, even though we've got the alcohol management plans. Is there a stronger role surely for the Federal Government in providing detox centres in these more remote communities? It's expensive I know but it's a hurdle that has to be...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't rule anything out in the new environment where what our approach is we sit down with the local community and we put together what's called a shared responsibility agreement and what the Government does, at both the State and a Federal level, potentially is say we will give you x, y, z resources, in return we would like the following to happen. Now at its most elementary level in part of the Northern Territory we have a programme called, all over Australia in fact, called 'Pools for Schools' and we say if the attendance levels at schools are up and adequate we provide swimming pools for the community. We're in effect saying to the children you want the facility of the pools, and to their parents, you've got to go to school. Now it's working, some people say it's paternalist, I think it's realistic, I think it's commonsense. Now there are a whole lot of things we can do. As far as detox centres are concerned, if there are ways in which they can be incorporated in these shared responsibility agreements we'd be happy to look at them.
MCKENZIE:
We're starting to run out of time too. Just quickly, you're office to Papua New Guinea today, there's a great number of expats actually living in Cairns, they'll be very interested to hear what you have to say about the future of law and order in this country, what Australia can contribute. Are we going to go back to those previous levels of assistance in this law and order campaign, particularly in Port Moresby?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we can't go back to the previous levels under the present law of Papua New Guinea. We were willing to put unprecedented levels of resources into improving the situation on condition that our police had an immunity, and that is only fair and reasonable. The immunity given to them was struck down by the Supreme Court and the Government of Papua New Guinea has so far been unwilling to take the steps to alter the constitution to reinstate the immunity. So in those circumstances we can't expose our police to the risk of prosecution and therefore we've had to scale it right back. That is a great disappointment, we've still got a significant presence there, but it's nowhere near as much as I would have liked and I still hold to the views I expressed and my Government expressed when the original announcement was made.
MCKENZIE:
I hope you're prepared to take your shoes off when you get to Port Moresby airport.
PRIME MINISTER:
I comply with the laws of any country I visit. It's simple. And indeed the laws of this country.
MCKENZIE:
John Howard, many thanks for your time in the studio today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
MCKENZIE:
We look forward to the next visit.
[ends]