MORRISH:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, very nice to be with you.
MORRISH:
Why did you go to Cooktown and Hope Vale yesterday?
PRIME MINISTER:
I like, on a fairly regular basis, to visit Aboriginal communities. I went to one in the Northern Territory a few months ago. I went to Hope Vale because I'm aware of the work that's being down by the Cape York Land Council and I got a very strong message from the people I met yesterday, and that message was that Aboriginal people wanted job opportunities, they wanted good education, they didn't want passive welfare, they wanted economic independence and quite a number of them expressed support for private land ownership by Aboriginal people - something that I very strongly support and something that is gathering support around the whole country.
MORRISH:
You announced funding for a range of things adding up to I suppose in excess of $300,000. Was there a need to make a personal visit? You don't always do that when $300,000 or $400,000 is in the offing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the visit was more important in a way than the funding announcement, important though any funding announcements that provide additional facilities represent. The value of a visit like that is to really hear what people want and the biggest single message I got from visiting Hope Vale was that the people - their representatives, want economic independence. They want economic self-empowerment. They want to get off passive welfare and they want policies that encourage that outcome.
MORRISH:
With regard to the housing, are you signifying that you want to take a leadership role in Aboriginal affairs during your term?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I've always taken a great interest in this issue and I think what has happened over the last year is that people have started to put aside their differences and their arguments about symbols, and have started to focus on the future. And there's a lot of agreement, there's a lot of agreement between the Commonwealth and the State, there's a lot of agreement even across some of the party divides that we need to give Aboriginal people the chance of a job. They need better health. They need better education. They need housing, all the things that we all want. They are part of us, they're part of our community and for too long they've been looked at separately rather than as part of our community. Now they are distinctive because they are the first Australians and they have a special place in the history of this country. But that doesn't gainsay the need for them to have the sort of things that we all want and the sooner we understand that and work with them to achieve it, the better.
MORRISH:
There are a lot of poor people, you know, people living below the poverty line in Australia, be they indigenous or non-indigenous, but you are a supporter aren't you of indigenous home ownership?
PRIME MINISTER:
Very much so, I'm a supporter of home ownership for everybody who can afford to do it, I really am. And I don't think there should be any distinction between indigenous people and the rest of the community. I think it's patronising. I think it's discriminatory to take the view that somehow or other home ownership is something for the white community but not for the Aboriginal community. So I welcome the embrace of it. There was a view amongst a lot of Aboriginal spokesmen for many years that the only form of land ownership was communal ownership. Now I'm not trying to undermine the Native Title Act but what I'm saying is that where we can develop methods of private home ownership within indigenous communities, we should do so and I've already won the support of the Chief Minister of the Northern Territory, Clare Martin, and I'm sure that there are many other people in state governments who would share my views. I don't think this is an issue where the political divide is all that great.
MORRISH:
You've indicated that you enjoy getting out to indigenous communities. You've been in enough of them to know the standard of housing is often appalling, I mean do you seriously expect people to want to buy those houses?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well one of the reasons they're appalling is that people don't own them. Simply as that.
MORRISH:
Why should that be change?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well once you own something you value it and you look after it, it's human nature. That's been the experience of all societies. When people own something they take greater care of it because it's their own, and that applies whether you're an Aboriginal Australian or a white Australian or whatever. It doesn't matter, that's human nature and the sooner we understand that we're dealing with human instincts and we're all, in that sense, we're all completely the same, the more likely we are to get good outcomes.
MORRISH:
Well in, you know, in helping them to advance, to achieve that dream of home ownership for indigenous people, is the Government... will the Government be offering assistance?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there are all sorts of things that we can do and I'm not at this stage going to outline those. But the most important thing is to get acceptance of the concept of individual ownership within Aboriginal communities. Up until now the view has been that indigenous people should only own land within indigenous communities on a communal basis. Now we are looking at, the Northern Territory in particular, is looking at the concept of 99-year leases, which of course operated for many years in Canberra. So there's not a concept that's unknown to Australian home ownership and to land holdings. There are all sorts of elements to this but the fundamental thing is to accept that like the rest of us private home ownership, private land ownership is a key to family and social stability and Aboriginal people are no different from the rest of us.
MORRISH:
Before we leave indigenous issues, you have also announced educational assistance. Do you accept that the low educational outcome in remote Australia is the major barrier to poverty and economic and social development? Is there a bigger role the Commonwealth could be playing in this area?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I guess you can say there's always a bigger role than any government can play in any area, but there has to be a point at which the government steps back and the individual steps forward. And that is what a lot of the people I spoke to yesterday were saying to me. They want individual responsibility. The whole basis of the views of people like Noel Pearson is that, sure governments have an ongoing critical important, supportive role but he wants, and I want, and I think a growing number of Australians want indigenous people to assume responsibly for their own futures. And that means, like all of us, it means discipline, it means hard work, it means also though having access to educational and health opportunities. Educational standards are still far too low but they are starting to improve. The through to year 12 retention rates for Aboriginal people have improved and they'll go on improving because of the policies that we are starting to implement now.
MORRISH:
What are some of those...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the most important thing is to build within each community the concept of a mutual obligation, that okay if some facility is going to provided, part and parcel of that facility, for example, is to make sure that your children go to school. Truancy levels are too high in many parts of this country, including unfortunately in Aboriginal communities. Now we have to change that. We have to make sure that the children are properly fed. One of the things I was told about yesterday was that they have a system in Hope Vale of in effect ensuring that at least breakfast and lunch are definitely provided for the school children, it's part and parcel of their day. Now that may sound very simplistic and very fundamental to a lot of your listeners but it is a problem. And if children go to school on an empty stomach, they can't concentrate and they can't learn anything, they're lethargic, we all know that from our own experiences with our own children. So these are very fundamental basic things but they're all building blocks to a better education system. It's not so much that the facilities in many cases are not there, it's just the facilities aren't properly used and you've got to get facilities properly used in order to build a better education system.
MORRISH:
Nineteen past nine and with me in the studio the Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard. Prime Minister on other matters, industrial relations, are you winning the PR battle, you know the PR?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think winning or losing the PR battle is the important issue. The important issue is whether these reforms are good for Australia's future and I believe they are and that's why we'll be pressing ahead with them because they will over time maintain the prosperity and the productivity that's given us such a strong economy to date. Whenever you introduce something new and something big it's easy for people to be scared about it, and I'm not surprised that a scare campaign has been waged against it, and that will go on for some time. But I equally believe that once the reforms have been passed by the Parliament, people experiencing them will then realise that the scare campaign was false and that they're not going to lose their working conditions. They're not going to be worse off, in fact many people will be better off and overall over a period of time the economy will be a lot better off. And that is the reason why I am so committed to these reforms.
MORRISH:
But the purpose of the PR about the (inaudible) plans is to have people feel they are informed and I suppose... you know the devil in the changes of course is in the detail and I think you would accept that. But High Court Justice, Michael Kirby says workplace relations advertisements fail to inform or describe the proposed changes, what do you say to that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm not going to comment on some remarks made from the bench by a member of the High Court in a decision where his view was in the minority, anymore than I'm going to quote the views of the majority of the court. I don't think it's appropriate for me to do that. There was a case and the challenge against our advertisements by the Labor Party and the unions was thrown out by the High Court by a verdict of five to two. Now I don't think it is proper for me to pull out of the minority judgement a comment anymore than it would be proper for me to pull out of the majority judgement a comment. But I do have to make the observation that the comment that referred to reflected the view of a judge who was in the minority.
MORRISH:
But it is a criticism.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm not going to [inaudible] justices of the High Court on either side of the argument, I don't think that is proper.
MORRISH:
We'll look at some of the responses we've had. During a discussion on our programme last week with small business, there was some support for change, people, you know acknowledged the flexibility, some people. But issue of compliance was a real concern. Now small business, they have to get their agreements right, they have to make sure you know they've got good legal standings, in their own time and at their own expense and that's rather than relying on the awards system as they've had in the past. Is that a fair concern?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm sorry I'm not quite sure what question...
MORRISH:
You know, in putting all this together, as they're going to have to do, small business employers, it's going to come as big expense to them, you know they don't...
PRIME MINISTER:
Ah I see what you're getting at, I'm sorry. Well the... one of the big changes we're making is to make the approval process for agreements much simpler than the current process. I think what the small business people you were talking about are referring to is the very tortuous approval process for agreement making under the present law. And one of the big changes we intend to make is to simplify that process. At the moment you have to get agreements approved by the Industrial Relations Commission. Under the future law you won't have to do that, you will merely have the agreement signed. You will, as an employer, lodge it with a statutory declaration to the effect that it complies with the law and it will take effect from the date of lodgement. So all of the things of which you are speaking, or many of them, will in fact disappear under the new system.
MORRISH:
I suppose we'll have to sort of wait and see.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think that is true, that's true of any big change. This is a big change. It's not a radical or extreme change but it is a big change. And it's very easy for the opponents of big changes to paint a picture of fear and unfairness and that is what the unions and the Labor Party have done. And I expected that, and I have no doubt they'll go on doing it. But I have equally no doubt that when the laws are implemented in a few months time people will look back and say what on earth was all the fuss about.
MORRISH:
I don't know what paper, Prime Minister, you read over breakfast, but the latest Newspoll shows that you, as preferred leader, down by seven points. Is that a cause for concern for you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I take a long view about these, I've been Prime Minister for nine-and-a-half years and...
MORRISH:
Big drop through.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well my ratings have gone up and down. But you don't make a successful Prime Minister if you react to individual opinion polls. The reason I suspect that I'm still Prime Minister is that I have stuck to my course, I've stuck to my guns on issues that I believe in, even if I have faced periods of criticism. And that's happened in the past. I mean if we'd have taken notice of the opinion polls back in 1998 we'd have never had tax reform. If we'd have taken notice on the opinion polls on a whole lot of things we'd have never had change and reform. The role of a government, the role of a prime minister, is to do the things he believes are in the long-term interest of the country and if that involves going through periods of criticism then so be it.
MORRISH:
I'm sure you're recognising I'm chatting this morning with Australian Prime Minister, John Howard. Prime Minister, the Queensland Attorney-General is seeking constitutional advice on the legality of the proposed anti-terrorism control orders. Are you confident of your Government's legal position?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. The advice we have is that these laws are constitutional, there's never been any doubt raised by our legal advisers. I've heard on the radio this morning about some concerns raised within the Queensland Government and about a letter that Mr Beattie is said to have written, I haven't seen that letter, it's all news to me. I can assure your listeners that the advice we have from our legal authorities is that what we are proposing is quite constitutional. I am perfectly happy to discuss any of these matters with any of the State Governments, quite happy to do so. As I think you appreciate, lawyers often have different opinions as to what the law means and there's nothing new for a group of lawyers to have a range of views about the validity or otherwise of an approach. But speaking for the Commonwealth, and based on the advice I have received from the Crown Law authorities at a Commonwealth level, these laws are quite constitutional. If Mr Beattie, or anybody else has queries, he wants to talk to me about it, well, I am only as far away as the telephone.
MORRISH:
Of course, on an issue of such important national security, it's unlikely that he would be begging to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Would you consider any changes if it was consistent...
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I'm not even going to talk about changes when I haven't even spoken...
MORRISH:
But what if...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm sorry I don't deal in hypothetical situations with something as important as this. If there are concerns that any of my State colleagues have, they should raise those concerns with me. There were some concerns raised last week about so-called shoot-to-kill provisions, that was completely wrong. There are no new provisions in relation to police powers, we're merely replicating what has existed for years in the law.
MORRISH:
It's called lethal force now though, does it...
PRIME MINISTER:
Lethal force?
MORRISH:
... same thing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course, but it's been there. I mean you were to get the impression from some of the talk over the last few days that it's something new that I'm trying to bring in. Shock horror, John Howard is bringing in something that will enable people to shoot to kill. That has been, the use of lethal force in certain circumstances has been part of the law of the States of Australia now for decades, in fact, ever since police forces were established they've had the right to take action to protect themselves and to protect the public. After all, it's what police are meant to do, isn't it?
MORRISH:
You'll be heading off a little later today for the South Pacific Leaders Forum in Port Moresby, can I ask you about our relationship with PNG? Your Government's relationship with PNG, in recent times it has been, I suppose, strained. How would you describe it, how would you characterise it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think the relations between the people of the two countries is very close. The people of Papua New Guinea have great regard for Australians and vice versa, there's great interest in Papua New Guinea in Australian activities, particularly for example at a sporting level, State of Origin classes between Queensland and New South Wales are about the most widely watched sporting event in Papua New Guinea. We have had some discussion with the Government regarding the terms and conditions on which we will provide further assistance, we did have a major programme of economic and government capacity building and it was found to be unconstitutional, or rather the immunities provided as part of it were found to be unconstitutional by the Papua New Guinea Supreme Court, and we wanted the constitution changed and the Government was unwilling to sponsor that. We were disappointed in that because we don't really think the help we wanted to provide can be fully and effectively delivered without the arrangements originally made for those immunities. And that's probably caused some differences of view. We want to help the people of Papua New Guinea, but we obviously want...
MORRISH:
What do you think is the priority?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the priority is to make sure that aid, which is provided, is properly delivered. And that must involve improved standards of governance. And that's always been our position.
MORRISH:
So you're effectively saying they've got to pull their socks up?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we want to make sure that the assistance we are providing is properly delivered.
MORRISH:
Prime Minister, if you get asked at Jackson Airport just after landing in Port Moresby to take your shoes off...
PRIME MINISTER:
I'll do whatever...
MORRISH:
Won't be an issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, it won't. Anymore than it's been an issue for my wife as she's travelled around Australia on domestic airlines to take her shoes off. I got on board a plane going somewhere recently and did precisely that, a commercial aircraft. So I don't think that's an issue at all. I think we should have an equal application of those laws.
MORRISH:
Would you do it with a smile on your face?
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely.
MORRISH:
Prime Minister, thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]