ALAN JONES:
PM, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Alan.
ALAN JONES:
Thank you for your time. PM, I see that you are pledging to push Indonesia to outlaw Jemaah Islamiah, I am sure that you are aware, but may I ask you, that experts in international studies are saying that by cracking down or outlawing it, Indonesians could be playing into the hands of the terrorists?
PRIME MINISTER:
That's one point of view, the other point of view is that while ever a country tolerates as a legal organisation, a body that is clearly involved in terrorist acts, it is sending the wrong signal to those who might listen to the propaganda of those organisations, it's sending a wrong signal to the rest of the community. Now I do not believe that outlawing Jemaah Islamiah is going to make an enormous practical difference, I have said that all along, Mr Downer has said that all along and that should be kept in mind. But I do think on the other hand that by standing up and saying to the rest of the Indonesian population we are no longer going to accept as a legal organisation in our society, a body that has been involved in terrorist acts, it is taking a right stand.
ALAN JONES:
For the benefit of our listeners though, could I just ask you this so that they do understand, I mean Jemaah Islamiah is just an expression, an Indonesian phrase which means Islamic community so...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, look this is a very broad, amorphous group...
ALAN JONES:
Quite, it's very unstructured...
PRIME MINISTER:
Very unstructured. I mean I do not want to elevate the importance of this, it is not the be all and end all of tackling terrorism in Indonesia and if it remains as it is, then, or if it's banned in practical terms, it's not going to make an enormous difference, but you have to understand if you translated this into an Australian environment, how could a government in this country for a moment justify, allowing an organisation, part of which at the very least preached terrorism, violence and death to be a legal entity? Now it only has to be stated and it's a fairly subtle, nuanced argument to say oh well if you drive them underground, then you are going to promote the wrong reaction...
ALAN JONES:
I think the argument PM, I think the argument, may I interrupt you?
PRIME MINISTER:
(inaudible) underground already.
ALAN JONES:
Could I just say the argument seems to be though, if Yudhoyono takes this very, very tough stand, then he may force moderate people into becoming very militant people simply because they take the view that Yudhoyono is on the side of the West?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's one point of view, the other point of view which is at least as respectable, is that by taking a stand against a terrorist organisation, President Yudhoyono is in fact sending a reassuring signal to the moderately inclined people of Indonesia, it's a balanced...
ALAN JONES:
You've spoken to Yudhoyono haven't you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I beg your pardon?
ALAN JONES:
You've spoken to Yudhoyono in the last week.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I spoke to him on Sunday night and we had a very brief conversation.
ALAN JONES:
Did you talk to him about this?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, I said yesterday or the other day that I didn't raise this with him on Sunday night. What will happen is that Mr Downer will be going to Indonesia soon, he'll indicate when, and he and I are going to work out the most appropriate way to push it. But can I just make this point again, we're having a debate, a discussion, about the laws of another country. We have no power.
ALAN JONES:
No quite.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean I listen to some spokesmen on this, particularly from the Opposition, saying the Government's got to act - the Government can't change the law of Indonesia, we can only put a point of view.
ALAN JONES:
Quite.
PRIME MINISTER:
But in the end whether JI is legal or illegal, that is not the real issue, the real issue is the determination of the Indonesian police and security authorities and government to crack down on the terrorist organisation, their activities rather than their structures. And the other thing of course is the ongoing success of a moderate, democratic government in Indonesia, that is so important, the more successful that is, the greater are our long-term prospects of dealing with this terrible problem.
ALAN JONES:
Is it, in this attempted persuasion, it is still legitimate for an Indonesian or a foreigner in Indonesia to disseminate propaganda, to recruit, to raise funds to procure supplies and engage in support functions for JI. Now I am sure many people are saying that Yudhoyono should tighten that up.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look there are a whole lot of things that should be done by President Yudhoyono, inside Indonesia. Now I mean we are people who work together, I have a great deal of regard for him, but Indonesia is not Australia...
ALAN JONES:
No.
PRIME MINISTER:
...and there is still an enormous distance to be travelled before the right responses are put in place and this applies not only with Indonesia, but it applies with the Philippines, it applies with a great number of countries. The difference with Indonesia is for the first time in recent years with his election, we see hope because of his strength and his commitment to democracy, and to moderate Islam, we see hope of a long-term change. But it's going to be a long process and there will be a lot of things along the way that will anger and frustrate Australians, because they think to themselves, why on earth can't this be done, and they are right in reacting in that way. And I can understand the anger and frustration of Australians about this latest attack, I do indeed, I don't want anybody listening to this programme to think I don't understand that.
ALAN JONES:
Right, is it true too though that Indonesian intelligence and police lack a specialist counter-terrorism structure, the police seem to be primarily using their criminal investigations division to fight terrorism. Basically it does seem that the Government needs an organisation dedicated to fighting this kind of terrorism and extremism but they don't appear to have that.
PRIME MINISTER:
There is still a long way to go Alan. They have improved, and I don't want to sound patronising, because I am not, they have improved their police and their counter intelligence a great deal since the first Bali attack three years ago, there's no doubt about that, it has improved a lot. I'd like to think and I know that Australia has helped enormously and we will go on doing that but they still need a greater emphasis in those areas that you speak of.
ALAN JONES:
And Indonesian schools where those who seek an Islamic state seem to be building support in the classroom, it is said that there is a fairly low-key arm of JI active in 18 Islamic schools promising youngsters who are recruited to JI from the age 14 and of course when you get them that early, it's very difficult to dissuade them from those viewpoints later.
PRIME MINISTER:
That is one of the arguments that is used in favour, rather than against, banning the organisation, that if it were illegal then the capacity to stop it being involved in such schools, to the extent that it is involved, and there is evidence that it is involved in those schools, would be the greater. These are examples of the further changes that are needed in Indonesia and I agree with what you say, I just must say again that this is another...
ALAN JONES:
It is not easy to do.
PRIME MINISTER:
...this is another country.
ALAN JONES:
Sure. Quite.
PRIME MINISTER:
...and we can ask, we can argue, we can advocate, we can have all sorts of discussions but in the end, another country, it makes its own decisions.
ALAN JONES:
PM, this Abu Bakar Bashir continues to get a lot of publicity, the so-called Muslim cleric, yesterday talking about embracing nuclear weapons if necessary. He also talked about a clash of civilisations that would not end until the West and I quote "...accepts to be governed by Islam." He said, "...Islam must win and Westerners will be destroyed. If they refuse to be under Islam, it will be chaos. If they want peace they have to accept to be governed by Islam." I mean, in many ways, that's the guts of it though, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
It is the guts of it and those remarks are a timely reminder to those in our own community who in effect say well look this terrorism problem is our fault, that if only we weren't so strident about this or that that we believe in. I saw a British journalist Robert Fisk on television last night in effect saying look this problem will go on, while ever the West takes the attitude it does. The reality is that the core approach of terrorism, Islamic terrorists, is one of blind hatred of the rest and a desire for an Islamic Caliphate. That is their goal, it sounds bizarre, it sounds unrealistic but what you have just quoted from his words is a reminder to your listeners of what these people really believe.
ALAN JONES:
Yes and five days before the slaughter in Bali, nine Islamists were arrested in Paris for reportedly plotting to attack the Metro, now given France's utterly anti-US position in relation to Iraq, how much longer do we seek to sustain this argument it's all about our involvement in Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the first Bali attack occurred before Iraq, people seem to forget that. The critics say they blend the two in. I mean people can debate whether Iraq was right or wrong, I am happy to engage in that debate, but please let us not pretend that Iraq is the cause of all these terrorist attacks, they started before Iraq, September 11 was before Iraq, Bali was before Iraq, and the utterances of Bashir that you have just used, underline the basic goal and philosophy of Islamic extremism.
ALAN JONES:
To the other side of the coin here, you've spoken to Yudhoyono, he's been your guest here this year, how much pressure is now on him, because of course his parliamentary majority could be overturned if opposition parties formed a coalition against him, I mean it's the battle of the hearts and minds there isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
It's a very difficult juggling act and obviously that is something that he will take in mind in the decisions that he takes, and in the end he will call the shots on it like any leader of a country does and there are a lot of people who are there to undermine him, there are a lot of people who don't agree with his moderation, and there are people who might share his moderation but would like to take political advantage of any pressure that he is under, and he is under a lot of pressure. Apart from anything else, he is under the pressure of making Indonesia more attractive to foreign investors.
ALAN JONES:
Yes the economy has got to work.
PRIME MINISTER:
And the more terrorism there is, the more you destroy the tourist industry, the more you weaken the country's economy.
ALAN JONES:
Just finally on Indonesia and I just wanted to ask you something about political reform, the travel advice that is now current for people travelling into that region, what is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's basically, think very hard before you go. I mean this is a terrible dilemma for us, I mean on the one hand we must warn people of everything we know, on the other hand it's for them to decide, but we are telling people it's dangerous, we are telling people there could be other attacks. We're specifically saying there could be other attacks in Bali, and there could be, we don't have any advice, firm advice and intelligence that there will be but it is self-evident that there could be after what happened at the weekend, but in the end people have got to make up their own minds.
ALAN JONES:
Okay, just before you go, I don't think there is anything too controversial about this debate about political reform, all sorts of things are going before the Cabinet, but one thing is a bit controversial, you've been a long-time supporter of the democratic process, the central component of the democratic process, both here and anywhere else is choice, and you've also been favour of giving people a choice as to whether they should vote or not, that is, scrapping compulsory voting. Why wouldn't you do that, and give people that choice - better that than have people go to the polls who know absolutely nothing about the process?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well strictly speaking at the moment, the compulsion is to turn up...
ALAN JONES:
Turn up, that's correct.
PRIME MINISTER:
...have your name crossed, you don't have to vote.
ALAN JONES:
No, you can draw Donald Duck on the voting thing.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you can put in a blank ballot paper, yes. Now look if we were starting it all over again and philosophically, I am in favour of voluntary voting but we have had a long tradition in this country, and we've had a very stable system and the view generally and not totally 100 per cent, the view generally is why alter that? But if people want to continue to advocate change inside the Government well they're perfectly entitled to do that.
ALAN JONES:
And four-year terms?
PRIME MINISTER:
Four-year terms, I think they would be better.
ALAN JONES:
But under the Constitution would the Senate then, would have to be twice as long as the House?
PRIME MINISTER:
You'd have to have two, well you can change it, if the people agree you can change it to anything you like, but the Senate now is twice the term...
ALAN JONES:
Would people wear eight years?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you'd be up to eight years yes. Now that is the implication of it. We will continue to discuss this and I notice that Mr Beazley has said he more or less he supports, he would go along with, the four-year model that I mentioned, although he has a preference for fixed terms, which I don't agree with. We'll continue to discuss this and it could well be something that is put up for a referendum. But I am not certain that the Australian public would vote as overwhelmingly in favour of it as do newspaper columnists and political commentators.
ALAN JONES:
Good on you. Good to talk to you PM and thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]