MITCHELL:
But first in our Canberra studio today is the Prime Minister, Mr Howard good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL:
Do you want to put up the price of cigarettes?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I saw that report. I think smoking is a very bad habit, I gave it away myself about 25, 26 years ago and it's the best health decision I ever took and I would discourage young people from smoking but I guess there will come a point where the attempts to penalise people who choose to smoke might go too far. I think cigarettes are already very expensive, very expensive indeed. We have been more successful in Australia in our public education campaign about the ill effects of smoking than most other countries. There's always a delicate balance in a free society between punishing people who do things that hurt themselves and throw an additional cost on the community.
MITCHELL:
That's one of the propositions though isn't it that's being put up by state and federal?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'll be interested to see what comes out of it. I think we have to be very careful in situations like this that we don't create a precedent where you do it in other areas. I mean there's a lot of pain and injury in the community when people abuse alcohol and smash themselves up and smash other people up. They break the criminal law, they can go to jail, they can be sued, but how far do you take that for example?
MITCHELL:
Do you think we go too far already, perhaps in restricting smoking, I know one of the propositions here is to ban smoking in all workplaces including pubs and clubs.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think you can go too far. Certainly where the smoking of one person can damage the health of another person and that person is not a willing party to that then the person whose health might be damaged is entitled to complain and certainly it's much better now that you don't have smoke on aircraft, it's much better that you don't have smoking a lot in restaurants, whether it's too far in relation to bars and clubs I can understand the view that some people have on that.
MITCHELL:
The other proposition to come out of this is that cigarette companies and retailers be pursued for the cost that smoking imposes on the health system. Is that...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think there's a danger if we get into unreality with some of these things.
MITCHELL:
And that's that area is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that sounds a little bit, I mean I haven't seen the detail of it Neil and I am giving very much an on-the-run reaction. But I think you have to apply a lot of commonsense in these things and heavens above if you go too far with these laws you will make it very difficult and very onerous to carry on business.
MITCHELL:
And the price thing would worry me, people are addicted, a lot of people are addicted, if you force up the price, it's like putting a tax on their addiction isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it is and it is a very strange anomaly that we have pressures which are understandable in this direction and yet in relation to drugs that are now illicit you have a lot of people saying they should be made licit. Seems to me to be contradictory.
MITCHELL:
We'll take calls for the Prime Minister in a moment, if you'd like to speak to him 9696 1278 give us a call now. Mr Howard, pictures today in the Herald Sun of soldiers posing in Ku Klux Klan hoods, intimidating Aboriginal recruits. What's your reaction to that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I've had some inquiries made, apparently the photograph was taken in 2000, there was action taken inside the Army, it's clearly in very bad taste and I condemn it. Any sort of thing of that kind is not really a joke. I mean I'm fairly broadminded and reasonable about pranks and so forth in the military and or indeed anywhere else, but anything that touches upon somebody's race and particularly involving such an abhorrent organisation as the Ku Klux Klan is not a joke, I do understand some action has been taken, it was what four years ago?
MITCHELL:
(inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I understand, I just understand action was taken in the time available to me. I didn't know about it until I read the paper this morning, until the time available for this interview it is all information I've been able to get and if there's any further information then no doubt that will be made available by the Defence Minister.
MITCHELL:
Okay we'll take a call for the Prime Minister, Michael, go ahead please Michael.
CALLER:
Good morning Prime Minister, how are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm very well.
CALLER:
Congratulations on your win.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
CALLER:
Just a quick question, it really gets me annoyed when we talk about smoking, I mean smoking causes the greatest, well the greatest amount of deaths in Australia and yet we still, we've still legalised smoking. How come we can't ban it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you can ban it. The problem I guess is that if you ban that then people will say abuse of alcohol causes a lot of human misery, why not ban that as well? Now people will then come back and say well there is a safe level of alcohol consumption, yes there is, I hope there is, I consume a little alcohol myself so I certainly hope there is, I think most people accept that alcohol in moderation is certainly not a danger to one's health. It's hard to argue that smoking in moderation isn't a danger, although some people might still maintain that. These are always difficult issues, there's no clear cut position. The worry I have though is that if you start down the path of banning everything that is demonstrated to be in many circumstances harmful and certain circumstances harmful you will get governments and groups of people in the community wanting everything banned and the whole nature of our society will alter and I wouldn't like that to occur. But I can't deny that there's a certain finite logic in what you've put forward but my instinct and my commonsense I hope tells me that it would be a step too far, a bridge too far to actually declare smoking illegal.
MITCHELL:
Thank you Michael, thank you for calling. Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, the Health Minister, says today don't abort the foetus, adopt the child out. Do you agree with him?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well different people according to their views will have a different opinion. But I don't like, I don't think anybody likes abortion, I think everybody would like to see fewer abortions, I think everybody would like to see more effective contraception, I certainly am very much in that camp, I think the more sensible sex education at an early age in responsible, proper, positive circumstances we can have the better and I feel that...
MITCHELL:
In schools you mean?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah well obviously yeah, well preferably in the home, much to be preferred in the home but I mean I have you know a very strong view to that effect, we have to be realistic about human nature and human impulse and you have to work to ensure that it occurs in a safe and (inaudible) environment. The question of whether we change existing arrangements in this country, well that's something that the community will debate, I don't...
MITCHELL:
Why are we debating it though, it just seems to have come out of nowhere?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well because people feel strongly about it...
MITCHELL:
... Ministers feel strongly about it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no, I think more than that, and I think, there was some discussion a couple of months ago at the time of that BBC movie about the...
MITCHELL:
Late term...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, and there was debate that came out of that, and interestingly people who've taken a more liberal view in relation to abortion were amongst some of those people who begun to question the incidence of late term abortion. I don't think you can ever say that issues like this have been put to bed as far as debate is concerned, I really don't, I think...
MITCHELL:
Well do you agree with the don't abort, adopt?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's a matter of individual choice.
MITCHELL:
What's your view?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well my view's very conservative, I personally don't like abortion, that's my personal...
MITCHELL:
So you would agree with that? Adopt, don't abort?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no, no you're putting words into my mouth. I'm dealing with an issue that I know there are strong views on both sides. Ultimately if there's any debate on it in the Federal Parliament Members of the Liberal Party will have a free and open vote. I don't get any indication that there's going to be an early Private Member's Bill on this issue, I don't think that would be something that people want just at the moment, I think people, whatever their views may be, would take the opinion at the present time that the issue just ought to be talked about and discussed in a calm manner. Bearing in mind that the Federal Parliament's role is limited in that we have control over Medicare payments and we obviously have an ultimate control so far as the law of the two territories is concerned. But applying the logic that we applied in relation to the euthanasia bill I think there would have to be argument to overturn the law in the territories which would not have any impact on the law in the states would create the very situation that many argued should not occur in relation to the Northern Territory's initiative on euthanasia.
MITCHELL:
You agree the late term abortion is perhaps a more crucial issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it is, yes, it is. I think I was asked on your programme about this some months ago and I said I found that rather repellent. I know in some cases it occurs where there is strong evidence of likely profound physical or mental abnormality, I recognise that is a more sensitive, difficult issue. But absent that my unease I guess is greater in relation to that in relation to other terminations.
MITCHELL:
What do you think of the Family First idea of presenting, requiring, before an abortion, requiring the woman to have ultrasound pictures of the foetus?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't have a specific view that about that particular proposal, I think the idea of providing people with more counselling and more support and advice regarding options is worth looking at. These are the sorts of things that ought to be discussed and kicked around before there's any decision made by people. It's open to private members, I stress private members to bring forward propositions if they want to. But the Government won't be itself initiating any change at a federal level to the existing arrangements. But I do recognise that it's an issue where people have very strong views. And I find it rather odd that some people are saying that we can't talk about this anymore, we talked about it 20 or 30 years ago. Society changes.
MITCHELL:
Well was it the role of the Governor General to get into it though?
PRIME MINISTER:
I had a look at the detail of what he said and he wasn't expressing a view on either side of the debate, he was I think saying what most people say and that is they would prefer fewer abortions. I don't think, I don't find anybody who argues, even those who are strongly in favour of maintaining the existing law and the existing practices, I don't think anybody is arguing that it's a desirable thing, it's something other than the nature of a last resort.
MITCHELL:
What he said was sensible but should he have said it? Is it the Governor General's role?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well unless you take the view that the Governor General should do nothing other than when he turns up at something to say good morning, it's nice to be here, I don't, I think (inaudible) in any way breaching the rules, he's a human being like the rest of the us, he's a father, he's a grandfather, he's entitled to have views and I think we're mature enough to handle that.
MITCHELL:
We'll take a break, come back with more from the Prime Minister in our Canberra studio in a moment.
[commercial break]
MITCHELL:
10 to nine, a number of issues I'll raise quickly with the Prime Minister, but first Trevor, go ahead please Trevor.
CALLER:
Yeah, I just wanted to ask a quick question to John Howard, I work in the manufacturing industry, and is it true that he's going to head hunt the unions and so forth now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Head hunt them?
CALLER:
Yeah.
MITCHELL:
What do you mean?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well head hunting means trying to recruit somebody, I don't know if we're trying to recruit them.
MITCHELL:
What do you mean Trevor, you mean crush?
PRIME MINISTER:
Crush them? No, I'm not trying to crush unions, I respect the right of unions to exist and laws under my government will always protect the right of unions to exist. What I'm against is any kind of compulsion to join a union and what I'm against is any kind of denial of choice for an individual in the workplace to make his or her own employment arrangements without the involvement of a union.
MITCHELL:
There's no doubt that compulsion exists is there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it is, it exists in practice in some industries, it's declining. Its last redoubt now is the public sector unions, we are witnessing in many of the states disputes between, in all cases, state Labor governments and unions in relation to public transport, construction and so forth where that compulsion does exist. Now we'll continue to oppose that, we'll continue to seek further exemptions for lawful dismissals of people, particularly in small business, but we're not trying to destroy unions and we're not trying to deny individuals the right to belong to a union or indeed the right of unions to recruit members in a fair way and to represent those members if those members want them to in industrial negotiations. It's got to be a matter of choice, I mean this is the issue involved in the discussions that Brendan Nelson is having with the vice-chancellors, all he's saying is that if an individual academic wants to exercise the freedom of choice that others have in other parts of society that person should be able to do so.
MITCHELL:
There's a couple of quick issues, it's reported that you're planning to link Aboriginal welfare payments to sort of behavioural contracts, that they have to behave to get the payments, or spend the money on food and clothes to get the money. Isn't that a bit paternalistic?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't think it's paternalistic, I mean for example we had wide acceptance in the community a few years ago because our immunisation levels were very low that people wouldn't get family benefits unless they immunised their children.
MITCHELL:
But you're saying here's money for Aborigines but we'll tell you how to spend it.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I think it's important not to confuse the embrace of the principle in appropriate cases with individual examples, where decisions have not been taken. I think what the Minister was outlining was a rejection which many Aboriginal leaders have rejected of the concept of sit down money, I think the idea of passive welfare is an idea whose time has passed.
MITCHELL:
Well do you see a mutual obligation plan for Aboriginals?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Aborigines have had mutual obligation in relation to the employment arrangements now for a long time and I think the idea of mutual obligation is quite a good idea, not only in relation to Aboriginal...
MITCHELL:
Well how far do you...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I can't tell you at this stage because with something like this you talk about the concept and then you work out different ways in which it might sensibly be applied. But it's not going to be done paternalistically.
MITCHELL:
Yasser Arafat we hear close to death, perhaps already brain dead perhaps. How will history judge him do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think history will judge him very harshly for not having seized the opportunity in the year 2000 to embrace the offer that was very courageously made by the then Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, which involved in the Israelis agreeing to about 90 per cent of what the Palestinians had wanted. I think if Arafat had grabbed hold of that opportunity in the dying days of the Clinton administration then the path of things in the Middle East may have been smoother.
MITCHELL:
Do you think he'll be judged as a terrorist?
PRIME MINISTER:
Many people see him that way, yes.
MITCHELL:
What's your view?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I find it very hard to believe that he couldn't have taken more action to restrain the activities of terrorist organisations, let me put it that way.
MITCHELL:
Would Australia send a representative to his funeral?
PRIME MINISTER:
We will be appropriately represented, not at a ministerial level.
MITCHELL:
We're hearing reports from Fallujah, have you heard anything from Fallujah in the...
PRIME MINISTER:
Not which are in detail materially different from what's been publicly available. Obviously the Americans and the Iraqis have made a lot of progress, they probably are close to being in physical control of the city, the great difficulty of course is that in the classic guerrilla tradition the insurgents may have melted away only to return in a more sporadic yet deadly fashion.
MITCHELL:
Any Australians involved as far as we know?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
MITCHELL:
Any requests for Australians to be involved?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. Not at this point no.
MITCHELL:
Have you seen the Iraqi Prime Minister, a number of members of his family are being held hostage, that's a real escalation isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, it's a measure of how ruthless and determined and brutal these people are and how very important it is that they don't succeed.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, Remembrance Day today, do you think it's sufficiently observed?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it is. When you bear in mind that our principle day of remembrance is Anzac Day, Remembrance Day obviously features more strongly in countries such as Britain and a number of countries on the continent of Europe, but we have Anzac Day as well, I think when you take the two of them together we are a nation that even more so now than perhaps 10 years ago honour our war dead and have come to realise the contribution they made to the sort of life we have now. So I think when you take the two of the days together and the other things we do we are very attentive, as we should be, to the memory of those who gave everything to give us what we now have.
MITCHELL:
We'll take one more call, quick call, Neville go ahead please.
CALLER:
Yeah, g'day boys.
MITCHELL:
(inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
CALLER:
No worries, John. Look I've got a quick one, a very simple question, we constantly hear about the amount and the level of toxins in cigarettes in the tailor-mades, why can't we simply remove them? I mean I know that they're there to basically from what I know to keep the cigarette burning but so what if it goes out, why can't we make the manufacturers remove those really harmful toxins and basically, and this might sound stupid, make smoking healthier?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm not an expert on these things but I do know this, that commonsense would suggest that if there had of been a way of making smoking safe the manufacturers would have found it long before now.
MITCHELL:
Make it safer.
PRIME MINISTER:
Safer rather, yeah safer. I'm not a technical expert but it seems to me that no matter how you look at it there is a real medical danger in smoking and I can only finish where I started on this subject and that is to implore particularly young people who are thinking of smoking don't and who might have started give it up, the longer you keep at it the harder it becomes, to give it up.
MITCHELL:
Are you going to be able to get the Ashes cricket on TV for us?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is a hard one. Unless there's a commercial incentive for people to do it. But we'll just see what emerges as we get a bit closer to the event.
MITCHELL:
I assume you'll be spending late nights watching it wherever it is?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well along with the other 500-600,000 people who have cable TV.
MITCHELL:
Okay, thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]