MITCHELLL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELLL:
We will take calls for the Prime Minister. 96961278 is you'd like to speak to him. Mr Howard, mutual obligation for Aborigines and the deal with the Mulan people - the locals there to get help if they agree to keep the kids clean and the rest of it. It's reported today this has destroyed any hope of a race accord which was discussed only a week ago after that meeting with Michael Long. Are you concerned that some Aboriginal leaders are saying this is lunacy and sets back the chance of an accord.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think it's destroyed any prospect of an accord at all. What I've read and what I've heard is that the Aboriginal people themselves think it's a good idea. There are some who will criticise it.
MITCHELLL:
Yes, but their leaders. They're some of their leaders. Patrick Dodson for one.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yesterday I met the newly appointed Advisory Council chaired by the Western Australian magistrate Sue Gordon. They weren't critical of it at all, and the notion of shared community responsibility agreements is one that they endorse. I'm not saying that we talked about this particular one - we didn't - but the notion of shared agreements is something that we discussed. This particular agreement was in fact initiated, as I am told, by the Mulan community itself. Not only does the Coalition Federal Government support it, so does the Western Australian Labor Government. It supports it as well. I don't believe that it has destroyed prospects of a new understanding between the Government and the Indigenous community. That wasn't the atmosphere of yesterday's meeting. Yesterday's meeting was conducted in an incredibly positive atmosphere.
MITCHELLL:
But it still matters does is not if somebody like Patrick Dodson says it's lunacy? He says, "it smacks so much of the old days when the superintendents of the missions lined people up and checked whether they cleaned their teeth". I mean, if you have a section of the leadership and a powerful section of the Aboriginal leadership saying this is wrong and destructive, doesn't that really... it's self-fulfilling in a sense?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't think it is. We can't have a situation where a whole movement stands or falls on the reaction of one person. Nobody, and I don't say this disrespectfully towards Mr Dodson, but nobody is that influential, that powerful, that important. I think what you have to do is look at the breadth of Indigenous reaction and certainly from the community involved. Surely the people who should be listened to most on this are those who are affected by it, and the people who are affected by it support it, claim, in fact, to have initiated it.
MITCHELLL:
Well you see there are mixed messages there too. The Age has some of the locals saying this is unfair...
PRIME MINISTER:
You will always get a mix. I mean, Aboriginal policy, Aboriginal issues have become incredibly politicised and of course you can get a variety of reactions to individual issues. I can be certain though, based on the tenor of the discussions I've had with a whole lot of people over the last couple of weeks, not only the council, which will be our principal source of advice, but also the meeting I had a week ago with Michael Long and Dodson and quite a number of others, there is a new attitude and one of the things that was endorse was the concept of mutual obligation. Now this is an argument about the detail, the minutiae, of some mutual obligation arrangement. But the concept of mutual obligation is something that has been very strongly endorsed.
MITCHELLL:
What I don't quite understand is what if happens if one side of the deal isn't met, if the people in this case, for example, get their petrol pump and yet they don't live up to what they've said they will do. Is the petrol pump removed?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think common sense will prevail.
MITCHELLL:
What does that mean?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it means that people are not going to be treated in any harsh or unfair manner but equally an understanding is an understanding. Bear in mind that this agreement was negotiated on the ground. I knew nothing of it until its existence was talked about and made public because it was negotiated on the ground, and these things are done without direct ministerial involvement unless that becomes essential.
MITCHELLL:
But the principle you embraced?
PRIME MINISTER:
I strongly embrace the principle. I make no apology for what has occurred, and it has occurred under the authority of the Federal Government and I accept responsibility for it. Yes I do.
MITCHELLL:
So in the broader principle, what are the consequences of mutual obligation if the don't live up...
PRIME MINISTER:
If they are breached, well, I think a common sense reaction has to apply and I'm not going to proscribe in the advance what the detail of that is, and that would be foolish.
MITCHELLL:
Yes, but presumably there are consequences. You do a deal; one half of the deal isn't met. There are consequences for that presumably?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but you're asking me to specify what they are in a particular case. I don't intend to do that because the deal has not been breached. I take the optimistic view that it won't be breached, and unless and until it is, and until I know the circumstance and the Government knows the circumstances, it's foolish to start speculating about the consequences.
MITCHELLL:
Okay, well let's remove from this particular deal. You embrace the principle. As part of the principle what are the consequences in general?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well obviously we can't have a situation where you enter into a deal and it becomes known that, whether the deal in honoured or not, the benefits will still flow. Obviously we can't have that situation, but equally every circumstance is a little different and it's just not possible to say in black and white, well if this particular deal is not honoured, sometime in the future we're going to do this or that. That's what I'm saying.
MITCHELLL:
Fair enough. And I assume we'll see a lot more of the deals, or you hope we will?
PRIME MINISTER:
I hope we will because they are an expression of community desire at a local level. This is not paternalistic. It's very practical, it's very sensible, and it has a lot of community support and not just within Indigenous communities.
MITCHELLL:
It's 19 to 9. We'll take call for the Prime Minister. Leanne, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Hello Neil. Thanks for taking my call. My sister lives in America and my brother-in-law is an American soldier on active duty in Iraq, and I'm just...
MITCHELLL:
Is he an Australian, or an American?
CALLER:
He's an American.
MITCHELLL:
American, okay.
CALLER:
Yes. He's been over there nearly twelve months. We're just wanting some information as far as sending food parcels for Christmas.
MITCHELLL:
What from Australia?
CALLER:
Yes.
MITCHELLL:
So you want to send an Australian food parcel to an American soldier.
CALLER:
We do. He loves his Tim Tams.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, can I very quickly. Leone is it?
MITCHELLL:
Leanne.
PRIME MINISTER:
Leanne, if you leave your name and address with the station, with 3AW, I will get my office to find out from the Australian military people how you should address. We want the bloke's name and his unit and all of that. That would be handy, and we'll see what we can do. We try to help.
CALLER:
We have an address that we have been sending things to, but the parcels are taking more than 6 weeks.
MITCHELLL:
Oh okay, we need Tim Tams for Christmas.
PRIME MINISTER:
It's the 10th of December. Righto, we'll do our best but can't guarantee it.
MITCHELLL:
Thank you Leanne, just hold on for a moment and we'll get those details from you off air. That does turn your mind to the thought of the Australian people in Iraq Prime Minister, is there a message for them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I want to say to them, thank you, you are not forgotten and I'll be sending a message very directly to all of the forces, who are serving Australia overseas, quite apart from these comments. But they are doing a good job, it's very dangerous, nobody should underestimate the danger of operating in many parts of Baghdad, although two-thirds of the country, is relatively peaceful and stable, progress is being made, it's important the elections go ahead and it's important that countries that have contributions in Iraq at the present time don't withdraw them or wind them down over the months ahead until conditions have become more stable. We certainly won't be reducing our force levels in Iraq for the foreseeable future, I can't put any time on when that might occur.
MITCHELL:
Next Christmas?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I just don't know, I really don't know except to reinforce the view that they will stay there until they are no longer needed. We are very conscious that there is a continuing danger, we've got a force of between 900 and 1,000 when you take everybody into account. Now it's not as large obviously as the American or the British contribution but we've had a continuous contribution from the beginning and we don't intend to walk away from our responsibilities. And I do want to thank the men and women of the ADF. Senator Hill, the Defence Minister, was there last weekend in Baghdad thanking them and I'll be reinforcing that with a message to them.
MITCHELL:
We'll take a break and come back with more from the Prime Minister in a moment.
(commercial break)
MITCHELL:
13 to nine, the Prime Minister is in our Canberra studio. Mr Howard, unions, are you aware of Victorian's plans to give union health and safety officers the right to enter workplaces on demand?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I read about that in the Herald Sun this morning.
MITCHELL:
Is it concerning?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes that's going too far. I think people have a, I think unions have rights, they have rights to look after the interest of their members, they have certain rights to argue the case for membership of their union with employees, I don't think you have the right on demand, irrespective of the circumstances, to enter the premises of a firm. The observance of health and safety regulations ought to be the responsibility of the department that administers them.
MITCHELL:
I guess there is no role for the Federal Government is it, if the State wants to do it they can?
PRIME MINISTER:
Could be quite difficult, I haven't had an opportunity of examining it.
MITCHELL:
Isn't the union issue one of the big ones for next year?
PRIME MINISTER:
I wouldn't see it in terms of being a union issue because I don't have any quarrel with ordinary unionism. Unions have played a part in the history of this country and people who've wanted to belong to unions have a right to do so and unions have a right to advocate their cause and to recruit members. What we are opposed to is any kind of compulsory unionism and we are opposed to unions per say having any kind of monopoly in the industrial relations scene. We'll certainly be trying to pass some further changes to the workplace relations laws, the unfair dismissal issues and a number of other issue where we've tried to amend the law in the past but been blocked in the Senate. But next year is not going to be a anti-union year, it's not going to be a union bashing year. Australians are voting with their feet as far as unions are concerned, there is only 17.5 per cent of the private sector workforce now that chooses to belong to a union. Now that's matter of free choice. We neither seek to persuade or people that stay out unions or prevent them joining unions, it's a matter of freewill. But what we do oppose is a monopoly or preferred position being giving to the union movement when it comes to negotiating industrial arrangements or having a say in the industrial landscape, we just think it should be a matter of free choice, if you want your interest catered for by your union, that's fair enough, if you want to negotiate something on your own, that's fair enough, if you want to get together with some of your work mates outside the union structure and negotiate with your boss, that's fair enough as well.
MITCHELL:
A couple of things I would like to touch on quickly, were you aware ASIO was sending agents to the Middle East for training?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't normally talk about what ASIO does in relation to internal matters.
MITCHELL:
Head of ASIO talked about it in the Fin Review today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, well, fair enough.
MITCHELL:
Do you think he shouldn't have?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, I'm always very cautious that's all.
MITCHELL:
Okay. The economy, Peter Costello's talking about a very tough year ahead; do we face the possibility of recession next year?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh no. I don't believe for a moment that there will be a recession, no. I think what Peter was rightly saying is that there are, as always, a number of challenges and if they came to fruition they could result in an economic slow down, there is always the possibility of drought, there is always the threat a sustained appreciation of the dollar which weakens the competitive position of our exports and we are in a sense a captive of what happens to the American dollar, our dollar goes down when the American dollar goes up.
MITCHELL:
So inevitably a tough one?
PRIME MINISTER:
It's tougher because we've come some of these challenges, the price of oil is a big issue. So it will be a tougher year economically than last year but recession, well a tougher economic year next year than this year's been, but a recession no.
MITCHELL:
Do you think might have to rethink some of your election spending for that reason?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't believe that's the case, we've already legislated for those things that were time specific and start on the 1st of January and therefore needed legislation. I believe we'll be able to meet those commitments when we intend to.
MITCHELL:
Craig, go ahead please Craig.
CALLER:
Good morning Neil, good morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Craig.
CALLER:
Mr Howard, I'm an ex-Ansett employee and since the demise over two years ago the Government's collected, I believe, allegedly, in excess of $100 million in the Ansett ticket levy which hasn't been passed on to the workers. Will you at all reconsider the release of these funds to the workers because there's over what $200 million still owing to the workers.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well the money that's owing is over and above the guarantee that we gave. What we guaranteed was the payment of eight weeks redundancy and the long service leave and other entitlements. But any redundancies over and above that we didn't guarantee. We have collected in the order of $100 million more and in accordance with the commitment I gave at the time, that money has been put back into the industry. That's what I said at the time, I said that it would be put back into the industry if any excess was collected and the only reason the excess was collected was that court action left in doubt the final distribution of the assets of the liquidated company and, we were advised we had to keep the levy on against the possibility that the court would hold that we had a greater obligation than we believed we had and as a result we collected more and we said that we would put that back into the industry and it has been put back into paying for enhanced security at airports and other matters related to the industry which of course would otherwise relive the Australian taxpayer who paid the money from any additional obligation.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, you said yesterday that the Minister De-Anne Kelly had breached the ministerial code...
PRIME MINISTER:
One element of it, yes. Now that element was that if you employ somebody you are required to get a statement of pecuniary interests from that person. What happened in that case was that the man was employed for only three months, his salary was I think $55,000, he was an electorate assistant, he did sever a consultancy he had with a milk company that was involved with the Government, but she failed to get the statement of pecuniary interests, that was a mistake. I did not regard that failure, of itself, as a sufficient reason, bear in mind this happened some years ago when she was a Parliamentary Secretary, to sack her...
MITCHELL:
What part of the code do you expect to be observed?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I expect all to it to be...
MITCHELL:
What are the consequences if you don't.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it obviously depends upon the totality of the circumstances. I mean if there had been, as well as this, there had been clear evidence of her having exceeded her authority or deliberately misled Parliament then I would have taken a different view. But there has really been, what happens is and I can tell your listeners I have seen the documentation, what happened in this particular case was she got a recommendation, she approved the grant, she signed it on the 31st of August 2004, she dated it and she put the time because that was the last day before the caretaker period came into force at five o'clock that afternoon, she put the date and also the time, 3.37pm. And it was there in black and white, I've seen it. And what happened was she signed the letter and because apparently the view was taken the Government having gone into a caretaker period, no more paper should be processed in the office, the Departmental Liaison officer took the letter and others away and sent them out after the election and in fact after she'd shifted ministries. Now I'm satisfied that there was no intent by her as Veterans' Affairs Minister to exercise the authority she previously had as Parliamentary Secretary. Now if she had of then I'd have a different view.
MITCHELL:
Okay, just quickly, a Senate inquiry has found that you did mislead people over...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I expected it, I expected it.
MITCHELL:
Are you saying it's a political...
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course, it's a political (inaudible). I predicted at the time that this would happen, that the Labor Party and the Democrats, who have been on this kicker. I did not mislead the Australian people on that issue. And in fact Mr Scrafton's evidence that there were three telephone conversations were seriously disputed when the Government's Senators produced telephone records from the Lodge that record only two of those telephone conversations which was in line with my recollection.
MITCHELL:
Okay, has this been your best ever year professionally?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'll leave that for others to judge. Certainly the election result was, from the Government's point of view, fantastic. I'm very pleased though that we've ended the year with such low unemployment figures, that's what good public policy (tape break). I'm also very hopeful that there is a new atmosphere in indigenous affairs, I would like to see improvements in Aboriginal health, I am very unhappy, as most Australians are, at the health standards of Aboriginal people, they still lag way behind the rest of the community and it's not just a question of money because a lot more money has been put into Aboriginal health, it's a question of culture, it's a question of practices, a question of attitudes, it's a question of community responsibility and we were talking earlier about these issues and we shouldn't trivialise this notion of shared responsibility, it lies at the heart of solving many of these problems.
MITCHELL:
Plans for the holidays?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yeah, I'll have some time off and I always read a lot of books during this holiday period, I play inadequately a bit of golf, and I'll go and watch some cricket.
MITCHELL:
New years resolutions?
PRIME MINISTER:
I never make them.
MITCHELL:
Why?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, I think there's something artificial about believing that you just make resolutions because the new year has come around. If you're disposed to a particular code of conduct it ought to apply the whole year.
MITCHELL:
And I was talking to Peter Costello about this the other day, what's the best thing you can give somebody for Christmas?
PRIME MINISTER:
Your affection and your time, your love, your support. But then for people who are close to you, they should have it the whole year around.
MITCHELL:
Well perhaps we haven't had your affection this year Prime Minister, we've had your time. Thank you very much.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you, thanks Neil and Merry Christmas to you and your listeners and your staff and your family.
MITCHELL:
And the same to you. Thank you very much Prime Minister.
[ends]