MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil. Are you well?
MITCHELL:
I am, thank you. We have 17 year old Tim Cuddihy, bronze in the archery; 20 year old Jodie Henry, gold in 100 metres; Leisel Jones silver; Jana Pittman showing unbelievable determination. Nobody can say the youth of Australia is lost, can they?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, they certainly can't. And I think the Greeks should be very proud of the way in which the Games have gone, and I'm so delighted there have been no adverse incidents, and we all hope and keep our fingers crossed that that remains the case right through.
MITCHELL:
Inspirational stuff. Have you been watching it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes. Not every night, but watching it quite a lot in between a few other things. But I thought the relay victory, the freestyle women's relay victory, was a tremendous performance. I guess perhaps it's a bit unfair to him, but because of Ian Thorpe's tremendous skills, you tend to expect great results. It's, in a way, those unexpected ones that come from names that are relatively unknown that gives you the most excitement. I was in Gunnedah earlier in the week and Sarah Carrigan's grandparents were there, her two brothers, and she was very excited... they were very excited.
MITCHELL:
What will be happening with the athletes when they get back? I assume you'll be greeting them.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there will be a welcome back when they arrive in Sydney. The question of other parades and welcome homes is something that I will need to talk to the Australian Olympic Committee about. The difficulty of course is that if you have a welcome home parade in one city, you must in fairness have it elsewhere. I certainly don't want a situation where you just have it in one part of the country and not another. That of course means that the athletes are tied up for some time. Whether they wish to do that is something I need to discuss with the Australian Olympic Committee.
MITCHELL:
Okay. But you're going to have a look at that sort of thing?
PRIME MINISTER:
I am, and I just say to your listeners, I will be very careful to avoid any suggestion that it's just going to take part... take place in one part of Australia. Obviously they have to come into a point, and they all come into Sydney because that's what normally happens, and there will be a welcome at the airport, as there was in 1996. But what happens after that is something I need to talk to the AOC about, and I want to immediately assure your Victorian listeners, and most of your listeners are Victorian, that we're not sort of going to have a situation where one thing is done in one part of the country and it's not done elsewhere. The result may be that... anyway, it's really up to the Australian Olympic Committee. I mean I don't control this and I'm not seeking to impose on the athletes. They will understand that they've got adoring fans in Australia who will want to welcome them home, but the operative expression is 'adoring fans in Australia', not in just part of Australia.
MITCHELL:
Okay, a more serious business and the ANZUS treaty. Alexander Downer has been criticised over comments he has made about China. Just to get this clear - would Australia automatically back Washington in a war between China and Taiwan?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's a hypothetical question.
MITCHELL:
Yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
And my aim is for that not to occur. I mean nobody can doubt that Australia is a loyal ally of the United States. I think that much is clear.
MITCHELL:
But Mr Downer did raise it. (inaudible) being hypothetical.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well yes that's true, but...
MITCHELL:
Should he change (inaudible)?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'll give you my answer. My answer is that we are working very hard to stop any conflict between the United States and China and Taiwan, and actually for all the talk, relations between China and America are quite good at the present time. There is tension over Taiwan. We have a One China policy. We think some of the statements that have come out of Taiwan in recent times have been a little bit provocative. We want stability and cooperation between China and Taiwan, and we certainly don't want conflict between the United States and China. That is not in our interests.
MITCHELL:
But a big part of the issue is the ANZUS treaty. What are our obligations with the ANZUS...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well our obligations are clear under the ANZUS treaty, but I'm not getting into a hypothetical question. There is no conflict between the United States and China.
MITCHELL:
But if they're clear, what are they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we have to consult and come to each other's aid when we're under attack or involved in conflict. That's the situation.
MITCHELL:
Do you agree that that contradicts what Alexander Downer has said?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't. I'd simply say that the issue of conflict between China and the United States is hypothetical.
MITCHELL:
Will you be talking to the US President to clear this up, because...
PRIME MINISTER:
No, there's absolutely no need to. I mean this is interesting, isn't it? For most of this year I've been pilloried for being too close to George Bush, and the faintest suggestion that there's a slightly different emphasis, people are saying dear this is terrible. I'm not saying you, but some other people. I mean that's a tad hypocritical of them. Look, we are close to the Americans. America has no more reliable ally than Australia, and I'm not ashamed to say that because in the long run it's only America that could be our ultimate security guarantee. But we have interests in Asia. We have a separate, strong, growing relationship with China and it is not in Australia's interests for there to be conflict between America and China, and I will do everything I can, and Mr Downer will do everything he can, to discourage that ever occurring. And I don't believe it will happen because I've spoken... the last occasion I saw President Bush in Washington, we talked about relations with China and he's interested in good relations. They have got a lot better and that is the mood and the attitude of the new Chinese leadership. They are sensitive about Taiwan because they see Taiwan as an affront to the One China policy. We agree with China that there should be a One China policy, but we also want the Chinese to deal in pragmatic fashion with the Taiwanese. It's a live and let live and let things evolve situation, rather than a...
MITCHELL:
(inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
... a pistols at 40 paces situation. I don't... there's nothing to be achieved by that.
MITCHELL:
What matters... what might matter to people here are some commentators are saying what has happened, what Mr Downer has said, threatened the fabric of Australia's alliance with the United States (inaudible).
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no. I mean that is patently absurd. I mean we've been accused of being too close to the Americans. I mean this is the hypocrisy of the attack on Downer. We are seen by our critics as being far too close to the Americans, and yet the slightest suggestion that we might be saying hey to everybody, Australia wants America and China to work together and to avoid conflict, that is in some way threatening the fabric of the alliance? I mean for heaven's sake.
MITCHELL:
I'll ask you about something else. Petrol prices. Qantas is putting up (inaudible) fares again, prices are over the dollar, oil at record levels over...
PRIME MINISTER:
$48.
MITCHELL:
Yeah. I think 26, 27 per cent increase in six weeks. Can you reduce your tax to keep the pump price down?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well our tax, of course, is a fixed tax. We are not collecting any extra revenue. The states are.
MITCHELL:
Well the GST is, yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah the GST, but all the GST goes to the states. All of it.
MITCHELL:
But it's still a tax we've got to pay at the pump.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, yes that is right and look I feel... it is difficult and I know people will say well you don't... you drive around in a Commonwealth car Mr Howard, as Mr Latham does too, and you don't understand. I do understand this. I have children who buy a lot of petrol and everybody's talking to me about it, everybody, and I am acutely aware of how painful this is.
MITCHELL:
So what can you do about it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I can't control the world price of oil, I can't.
MITCHELL:
But is it not possible to put a cap by capping the tax because there are millions more coming in...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there is millions more going into state coffers, there's not millions more going into federal coffers because the excise is a fixed amount per litre and whether petrol is 90 cents a litre at the bowser or a 120 cents a litre at the bowser, the amount going to the Federal Government is exactly the same, it's the amount going to the States because under the agreement of the GST all of it goes to the States.
MITCHELL:
Would you renegotiate with it with the States?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you know, look, the States are able, if they want to volunteer to do something about it they can but we have a fixed agreement, they get all of the GST revenue and I remember three years ago when petrol was not as dear as it is now when states weren't because of the introductory arrangements with the GST they weren't getting the full flow through of the GST, they were yelling and screaming at the Federal Government to reduce its excise. I don't hear much from them now, I don't hear anything.
MITCHELL:
So it's up to the States to put a cap on it?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm just pointing out... look, I do understand the difficulty of this because it's something that's come on unexpectedly and it is not the fault of any government in Australia that the price of petrol has gone up, I'm not blaming the States for the price of petrol having gone up, I'm merely pointing out for the benefit of your listeners that the Commonwealth Government is not getting extra revenue, it's the State Governments that are getting the extra revenue because it's the GST take that has gone up, the GST take goes to the States.
MITCHELL:
But isn't that inherently unfair? The price of oil goes up, the amount of tax going to State Governments, the amount of tax going in the motorists pocket increases by millions and millions of dollars yet the motorists struggle to pay for it. That to me is just unfair. The only people winning out of this are the Government.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, equally if the price goes down well the amount of tax collected goes down. If the price were to fall dramatically well that would have an effect on revenue and it would cut that... look, I find this a very uncomfortable situation. I understand the anger of consumers. But on the other hand, trying to respond to it in an ad hoc way is not easy. We all hope that this will be a relatively temporary situation and...
MITCHELL:
There can be inflation, there will inflation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it can be inflationary although we don't have an inflation problem in Australia at the moment and our rate of inflation is very low.
MITCHELL:
We'll take a break, come back with more, including your calls for the Prime Minister. 9696 1278 if you'd like to speak to Mr Howard.
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MITCHELL:
Prime Minister's in Adelaide and I've got about a million more questions. But Michael, go ahead please Michael.
CALLER:
Yeah, good morning Mr Howard, Neil. How you going?
MITCHELL:
Okay, go ahead Michael.
CALLER:
I just wanted to ask the Prime Minister if America goes to war with every other country in the world, is Australia going to back the Americans and go to war with them?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, it depends on the circumstances of each case. I don't believe for a moment America is going to go to war with every country in the world. That is a comment based on a misreading of American behaviour. America had particular reasons why it chose to take the action it did against Iraq and we had particular reasons for joining that action and those reasons I explained at the time and I still stick by that decision. But that doesn't automatically commit us to joining America every time she is involved in military action.
MITCHELL:
Andrew, go ahead please Andrew.
CALLER:
Yeah, good morning Prime Minister. Look, my greatest concern with the upcoming election is the interest rates. Now under the previous Labor Government I had to pay 17 per cent and it really did make a big hole in my family budget. We struggled. Under your Government we have certainly had the luxury, we have low interest rates.
MITCHELL:
Is your name Dorothy, Andrew?
CALLER:
No, it isn't Dorothy...
MITCHELL:
(inaudible)
CALLER:
No, hang on, Neil. I mean, you don't... I mean, you mightn't have to pay mortgage that I pay...
MITCHELL:
No, I pay the big...
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm sure you did.
CALLER:
And what I'm saying is Mr Prime Minister, I'm very concerned about interest rates and I just want people, obviously, to stop and have a think about where we were in the past because it is a big issue if interest rates go up. A lot of people will suffer.
MITCHELL:
I'm sure you'll agree with that...
PRIME MINISTER:
I do, of course I agree and it is a big question. I mean, who's more likely to keep your interest rates down, Mr Latham or me? And on the track record, we have done a lot better and that is a very relevant issue and the risk of Labor with bigger deficits and more profligate spending policy is that interest rates will go up. I mean, it is a reality check for that kind of question to be asked.
MITCHELL:
Fair enough. Thank you Andrew. Prime Minister, have you ever told a lie in public life?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I've tried not to.
MITCHELL:
Do you think you have?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I have never deliberately set out to mislead the Australian public. We all make mistakes but I have tried to be candid and honest with the Australian public, I have.
MITCHELL:
Do you believe this latest debate over the children overboard is hurting you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't know...
MITCHELL:
Because if you were lying then you're now, aren't you...
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm sorry?
MITCHELL:
If you were lying then you're lying now. I mean, that's what... debate isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't know. There is a very heavy attack from my critics at the present time, I can only repeat what I've said that that discussion which has now been talked about was the about the video. The reason I rang the man was to get his views on the video, I reject his recollection of that discussion, I dispute it. I dispute that we talked about these other things and I do point out, without attacking him, I hardly know the man, but I'm just pointing out that he did have an opportunity within a few weeks of that discussion to give his version of it to an internal inquiry which I had established, I established that internal inquiry, he did have an opportunity to give the version he now gives and he didn't. Now he says well that's because I felt intimidated, well people will make their own judgement about that, I don't know what his state of mind was, as I say I barely know him.
MITCHELL:
Are you offended by this debate?
PRIME MINISTER:
I have to put up with it. I don't like some of the things that are being said, but I've got a thick skin, you have to be, you have to put up with this or you give it away. If I get offended and over-sensitive I lose my sense of judgement and therefore I cease to be of value to the Australian people, or as much value in the job I occupy. But everybody who's been in office for a sustained period of time at some point in his or her career is the butt of these accusations of dishonesty, and it's happened to Tony Blair, it's happened to George Bush, it happened to Paul Keating, it happened to Malcolm Fraser, it happened to Ronald Reagan over Iran Contra, I mean it happens all the time. There are complicated issues in public life where people can mount a case of dishonesty, but in reality most of those cases of allegations of dishonesty are insubstantial. Of course I don't like it, but it's part of the territory and I have to deal with it as best I can and I will. But I do know this, that the next election will be about the future and not about the past.
MITCHELL:
Can I ask you a couple of specifics though, were you told before the election at any stage by anybody that there were doubts that children had been thrown overboard as a form of extortion?
PRIME MINISTER:
I asked Mr Reith on the morning of the 7th, I think it was the morning, but it was sometime during the day of the 7th, had he received any advice contradicting the original advice that the children had been thrown overboard and he said no I haven't.
MITCHELL:
So were you told by anybody at any stage?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I wasn't, I wasn't. I mean the thing is, I know it's very hard because it's on everybody's mind now, but the reality is that until the last couple of days the issue had disappeared...
MITCHELL:
Yeah, true.
PRIME MINISTER:
... and it came back. And in any event it didn't sway the election. If people had a view on this broad issue that swayed their vote it was because they thought we were tougher in protecting the borders than was the Labor Party. Children overboard was in a sense an illustration of the issue, it wasn't the issue itself.
MITCHELL:
Well that's true. You're briefed by the Office of National Assessments, how soon after the Australian raised their doubts, which I think was the 7th of November, did the ONA tell you their advice was based on ministerial statements and not intelligence.
PRIME MINISTER:
I didn't get that advice until after the election.
MITCHELL:
From the ONA?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, yes, yes it would have been from the ONA. I mean the advice may have been drawn to my attention after the election by my office, but I didn't get that advice myself.
MITCHELL:
That's a pretty serious criticism of them isn't it? They should have told you.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't know that it is serious criticism because another thing that has been overlooked in all of this, is that the original advice that children had been thrown overboard, the original official advice, was a written document that was generated by the people smuggling taskforce on the 7th of October when news first broke. So it was really that written confirmation more than the ONA advice which was the beginning I suppose of the official advice.
MITCHELL:
I mean you're quite right that the issue is history but I guess your credibility has turned into the issue now. I mean what do you say to people, are you saying to the Australian people trust me, is that the point?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I certainly am saying that. I ask people to accept that I didn't mislead them on this issue, I didn't deliberately mislead them. I mean many people in my position can inadvertently mislead people, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, I put my case in the most powerful manner I can in order to persuade people of it. But I was given advice originally that these children had been thrown overboard, I did not receive clear advice countermanding that before the election. I did release the video knowing that that video did not support the proposition that the children had been thrown overboard, it was inconclusive, it certainly didn't support it, but I still released it and in fact the day it was released produced headlines that evening on all the television bulletins saying that the Government's argument that children had been thrown overboard had been undermined by a release of the video. I mean that once again is forgotten. I mean if I had wanted to conceal the video, I mean that would have been deceitful. But I remember that discussion that night at the Lodge very clearly and the whole discussion was about what to do with the video and I decided, despite the fact that it was inconclusive, despite the fact that it didn't support the argument that children had been thrown overboard I said I'm going to release it because I don't want to accused of a cover up.
MITCHELL:
Could this cost you the election?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look that's a matter for your listeners. I don't believe that people are going to vote on the past, they're going to vote on the future. A lot of this attack on me is based on the fact that Labor has no plan and no policy for the future, we still don't have a tax policy, we don't have an economic policy, we have a back to the future industrial relations policy.
MITCHELL:
Well if it's true, but people don't like to feel conned do they? If people feel conned it'll hurt you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, this is a matter for people to decide, I can only put my case and I'm not going to get involved in gimmicks, I can only put my case and they can make a judgement.
MITCHELL:
Gimmicks like lie detectors?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, of course it's silly. Now I mean I just repeat again, I released the video despite the fact that it was inconclusive and did not support the propositions that children had been thrown overboard. Now short of stopping the whole election campaign and doing nothing else but talk about this issue I released a video and moved on.
MITCHELL:
A couple of other quick things, Mark Latham, have you sent him a get well message?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I did publicly and I repeat it now.
MITCHELL:
Will his illness influence your thinking on the timing of an election?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I just want him fit and well, I want to beat a fit and well Mark Latham fair and square.
MITCHELL:
He's had a fair bit of criticism for using a public bed rather than private insurance. What's your view of that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'll stay out of that, I don't want to be heard to making any criticism of a man who's laid low in hospital.
MITCHELL:
Fair enough. Ross Cameron, the Member for Parramatta, who confessed infidelity, shows his support dropping in the electorate. Do you want him as the candidate in the next election?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I do and there's been no poll carried out in his electorate that I'm aware of.
MITCHELL:
There's a report in the Australian today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, I saw that, I don't know on what that is based. But I don't have any comment on people's private lives.
MITCHELL:
He's a good Member of Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER:
He's a very hard working Member of Parliament and the question of difficulties in his marriage is a matter between him and his wife. I wish them both well, I don't want to talk about it, I won't talk about it, I don't talk about these things, and I think he is a hard working representative and I'm sure he will run again. I spoke to him yesterday, he told me he was going to run again and I want him to do that because he's been a very hardworking local member.
MITCHELL:
Qantas - now would you follow the flying Kangaroo to be foreign owned? They want the limit relaxed on foreign ownership.
PRIME MINISTER:
We have resisted that to date, they keep coming back at us and I understand that and we have friendly but lengthy discussions about this. They would like a higher level of foreign ownership. We are resisting that. I'm always ready to talk to Qantas about it, I see Mr Dixon and Margaret Jackson on a regular basis and they raise it with me. But my feel at the present time is that the flying Kangaroo is quintessentially Australian.
MITCHELL:
They also want tax breaks and restriction on foreign airlines. And they've put up their prices.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well everybody wants tax breaks.
MITCHELL:
It looks as bit odd when they've got an 88 per cent profit increase. Are they being a bit greedy?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I wouldn't say that. A very successful airline and I congratulate them, I think Margaret Jackson and Geoff Dixon are a great double act in running that airline, they're very effective, but equally they're doing well and I don't know what we're into further tax breaks.
MITCHELL:
Just finally, I don't know if you caught up with this, there's a survey reported today on the Internet, I know you're concerned about the Internet. 47 per cent of kids have seen inappropriate material, 20 per cent of children have been approached by a stranger on the Internet. Do you think in any way we can address that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I will look at that yet again, we have tried in different ways in the past to do something about it. It is very hard because it is the ultimate open space media isn't it?
MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for your time, I'm sorry I was ill last week.
PRIME MINISTER:
You're well now?
MITCHELL:
Back in action.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good on you.
MITCHELL:
Thank you very much.
[ends]