CORDEAUX:
It is a great pleasure to welcome the Prime Minister of Australia. Sir, how are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I am very well, Jeremy.
CORDEAUX:
It';s good to hear you. I saw some of the wonderful pictures that came from the wedding day, that must have been a fantastic occasion?
PRIME MINISTER:
It was, it was a great family occasion, it went well, I am very happy for my daughter and her husband and we all had a wonderful day and a wonderful evening.
CORDEAUX:
She made a beautiful, beautiful bride. Did you have any advice for the newly weds by the way?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not probably that they';d listen to, but they';ve known each other for quite a while and I was just so very happy for them and it';s the most important experience to see your kids happy. Most important experience of all.
CORDEAUX:
The journalists, I suppose, particularly the headline writers are making your job reasonably easy. I see that they';ve got everything on the front pages like – a $10 a week tax cut is on the cards, they know when the next election is going to be, all of the things that you don';t have to decide about now?
PRIME MINISTER:
That';s right. As for the tax cut, well I should point out that the extra surplus, the $7.5 billion was for the financial year that ended on the 30th of June last, that $7.5 billion has already been used to repay debt. When in a given year you collect more than you spend, what you have over is used to repay debt and that';s what we';ve done so none of that $7.5 billion is lying around in the bank, so to speak, it';s being used to repay debt and Australia now has a national debt level of 3.9% of our annual wealth. The average of the industrialised countries is about 45 to 47%. So it gives you an idea of how relatively debt free this country is and how important that is to future generations. Now, it may well be that in the current and the next financial year, it may well be that because of the stronger economy we end up with a stronger position and therefore a larger surplus than we';ve predicted. Now, we don';t know that yet and we won';t have any inkling of that for a little while, but it is our view that if you do have more than you expect because of the strong economy after you have met all necessary and socially desirable expenditures, what is left over should be returned to the people who gave the money in the first place and that is the taxpayers. It';s always important for people in my position to keep telling myself that this is not my money, it';s not the Government';s money, it';s your listeners' money and if there';s any leftover after we';ve looked after the things that are important then it should be returned to them particularly when we are in a surplus position and we don';t have a large debt.
CORDEAUX:
Yeah, well I';d say that';s a very winning philosophy.
PRIME MINISTER:
That';s the philosophy that';d be behind….now there will be debate about what is essential expenditure. Different people will say, well that';s fine as a principle but we think the Government should spend several billion dollars more on X, Y and Z and other people will say no they shouldn';t, they should give it all back in tax cuts and that is what the political debate is really all about. But we are in the very strong position as a result of the decision that the Government has taken and we';re a bit of a standout on this. America has a huge budget deficit now and most countries are in a deficit position and this hasn';t happened by accident, this is not something that the rest of the world has gifted to Australia, it';s something that results from the very prudent tight budgets that we';ve brought down over the last seven years.
CORDEAUX:
Yeah, a pretty remarkable performance considering the cost of SARS and the war…
PRIME MINISTER:
…And the military operation and we do as a nation need to spend more on defence. We';ve spent a lot more, but I can only see defence expenditure in this country being on the incline rather then the decline and that';s brought about by the circumstances of the world in which we live. We, of course, have invested a lot more in public hospitals even though we don';t own or operate or administer them in anyway, we in fact put more money into the state';s hospitals then they do themselves even though we have no control at all and we get criticised, but we get criticised over the administration of something that we have no involvement in.
CORDEAUX:
I heard Treasurer Costello last night saying that it was largely… that the surplus was largely the surge in company tax and he made the point that since you cut company tax, you have a greater amount of money from companies, which is really like the Irish experience because that';s what happened there – they cut taxes and they cut capital gains tax and the Government ended up with a lot more money because of those taxes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that';s an interesting analysis. It does seem to indicate that if you provide people with more incentive through lower taxes, they work harder, take more risks and in the process generate far more revenue than has been given back through lower taxes. So, there';s an interesting lesson in the value of always trying to cut taxes rather than increase them.
CORDEAUX:
So this reshuffle of yours, how did you keep that so quiet? I would have…. Well, didn';t you tell anybody?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I started talking to people some days before it was announced. The idea that I rang everybody over the weekend that appeared in some newspapers – that';s wrong. I had in fact begun talking to very senior Ministers about it some time before it was announced. Why was it kept tight? It';s kept tight because we have a strong team who believes in providing a strong united Government and it';s very reassuring to me and very good for the Government that we';re able to maintain this unity of purpose. And people see no merit in these things being leaked out…
CORDEAUX:
Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER:
They see a lot of merit in things like that being able to be kept confidential and go you get the maximum value and you create the best impression of a united purposeful Government by being able to contain them. But given the history of these things in the past, it was quite remarkable, and an enormous tribute to my colleagues who naturally had to be brought in on things because they were affected, many of them were. But it was kept very tight and I thank them most warmly for it and they see the dividend in the impression it creates of a united professional government.
CORDEAUX:
It must be nice to promote people but it must be very difficult to demote people or move them sideways.
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, the hardest job in personnel terms that I have is obviously making decisions about people because when you leave somebody out of the Ministry, or don';t include them, or you reallocate a responsibility, you are making judgements but that goes with the territory. Unless you';re willing to make some fairly decisive personnel decisions, than you have stagnation and I felt we needed a reshuffle. I think it';s a strong government made stronger. It';s a recognition that some people have been in certain portfolios for a very long period of time, indeed, since the Government was elected seven and a half years ago and a change was needed. And I think the Government will be better and more effective and fresher as a result.
CORDEAUX:
Mr Abbott in health seems to be the one that most people are talking about. What is it exactly that you expect from him in that role?
PRIME MINISTER:
I expect policy innovation from Tony, not policy innovation that departs from the principles that we support. Today incidentally is the 20th anniversary of the introduction of Medicare and it';s a occasion to reaffirm the Government';s very strong support for Medicare and our very strong belief, not only in its maintenance but where possible its strengthening and also our very strong support for the maintenance of the private health insurance rebate – that';s the 30 per cent tax rebate. But we are absolutely committed to maintaining and which we introduced in 1998 with the mandate of the Australian people which incidentally was opposed in the Senate by the Labor Party - and the Labor Party I';m sure if it wins the next election will take an axe to the private health insurance rebate. That';s one of the big differences between us and Labor on health. I would expect Tony, consistent with those principles, to be a policy innovator. He';s a very good communicator. People wrongly stereotype him as just a hard man in politics. He';s tough but he';s also highly intelligent and he';s got quite a social conscience. Tony Abbott is a real softy on certain things and that';s good because you need a combination. You need to be tough about the things that require toughness but you need some passion and sensitivity on other issues.
CORDEAUX:
I know you hit it on the head and said it was a silly idea, but somebody on the backbench I gather, for a fat tax for people who….
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think that is out of the question…
CORDEAUX:
Sure, sure.
PRIME MINISTER:
… I mean, I';m all in favour of people being encouraged to exercise more and to eat properly and I think the attempts the Government has made to limit the cost of the Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme by encouraging doctors to prescribe a diet change or a walk in the morning rather than some additional pills and potions, I agree with all of that, but the idea that you would penalise people because of their weight or size is not acceptable.
CORDEAUX:
But in the sense that if we put a fence at the top of the cliff instead of the ambulance at the bottom in what probably…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I certainly agree. They';re all sorts of things that you can do to encourage people. But you've got to draw the line at… because not everybody finds it as easy as the next person to control their weight. I know a lot of people who try very hard to control their weight… and they don';t find it easy because their metabolism is different from the next person. And we have to have a sensitivity towards this, but we do have a problem with child obesity in Australia. But the alarming thing is that it';s growing very rapidly over the last 15 years – that';s very alarming. But it';s also encouraging in the sense that if it';s growing so quickly in such a short period of time than it can be with the right approach arrested quickly in a short period of time.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, last time we were talking this… the 60 Minutes programme about the live sheep export trade had just been on and we talked about it and I tell you since that television event and the mess that this current shipment is finding itself in, this has raised on this programme, I don';t know about others, but it has been probably the most talked about thing when I look up on my screen and I see at least four people want to talk to you about it, perhaps if I, sort of take a few calls, you wouldn';t mind?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don';t mind at all. I can understand people';s distress about this.
CORDEAUX:
It';s a very emotional thing when we have Hugh Wurth on the programme saying that the money… while the money was good, hundreds of millions of dollars, it was nevertheless blood money and we really shouldn';t have a bar of it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I agree with people. I understand that and am part of the distress that people feel about the plight of this particular shipment, I have a different view about ending the live sheep trade. Right at the moment we are still trying to find a country that can take them. We have made probably 15 to 20 approaches. This has arisen not because of any failure by the live stock industry of Australia, there is no evidence to me that the people responsible for the export have in any way let the side down and there';s no failure on the part of the Government. We don';t really think the sheep were in a bad condition at all when they arrived in Saudi Arabia, we still are puzzled at the decision allegedly on the basis of some of them having a scabby mouth disease but we';re still puzzled that they didn';t take the shipment…. The alternative, if we can';t find a buyer, one is to try and slaughter them at sea and the practical difficulties involved in that are enormous. We had a very lengthy discussion in Cabinet about this yesterday and I spent a lot of time yesterday morning before the Cabinet Minister with Mr Truss. The Cabinet meeting … going through all the options and there are two options if you can';t find an alternative destination. You either endeavour to slaughter them at sea, which would involve a reconstruction of the ship because it';s not set up for a slaughter.
CORDEAUX:
Or you bring them back.
PRIME MINISTER:
Or you bring them back and that has to be the alternative. We have bought… made arrangements to buy these sheep back and… so therefore we';ve got control. But I want to assure your listeners that I share their distress. I have to be honest and say I don';t support ending the live sheep trade altogether. We are looking again at the way in which it takes place and we';re involving our quarantine people and others in that, but you ought to make it as humane as possible. I continue to be told by people and this is based on the advice of the vets on board that the sheep are still in a relatively good condition. They are taking on more food and water, but of course they';ve been at sea for a very long time and that upsets me a lot. But you can';t just walk away from it. We';ve got to manage it and the idea that you can easily and humanely slaughter them at sea… I just ask people to recognise the practical challenge of that is enormous.
CORDEAUX:
The critics of the trade would say that because we can';t control it, we have no way of knowing that the Saudis or some other Middle Eastern country won';t do this again and again and again and again.
PRIME MINISTER:
But they haven';t done it up until now. We';ve actually sent a large number of shipments and we continue to do so. This is the first occasion that we';ve had a problem that I';m aware of, of this type. So, it';s not something that does happen everyday and obviously we will want to find out for very long just exactly what the basis of the Saudi objection was. We can';t see any proper basis for what was decided. I mean, obviously they have a right to say we';re not going to allow the sheep to land. But we don';t think there was any risk. I heard the presidnet of the West Australian Farmers Federation on the radio this morning saying that they were very healthy sheep and he didn';t think there was any basis for the decision taken by the Saudi authorities and I don';t criticise the industry, I don';t think they could be blamed for this, it is a very distressing issue and we are trying everything we can to deal with this particular shipment. And it looks to me as if the only realistic alternative is to bring them back and they';ll be subject to very strict quarantine. If we can';t find another buyer, we';re still looking for somebody to take them.
CORDEAUX:
Yep, yep. Mary Anne would like to have a word with you sir.
PRIME MINISTER:
Sure.
CORDEAUX:
Mary Anne, go ahead.
CALLER:
Good morning, Jeremy. Good morning, Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Mary Anne.
CALLER:
Good morning. The truth is that the only thing actually unusual about this Cormo Express is that the public know about, this is not an unusual event at all. They';ve had 30 years to improve the trade – that';s long enough, it';s time to end it. The majority of the Australian public have made it clear that we';re ashamed of these atrocities at sea, even if our Prime Minister isn';t. We don';t want this dirty blood money. And I think you';d do well to remember Mr Howard that you are actually our servant in a democracy not our master. The majority of the public of Australia has made it clear that they want this trade to end now. They';ve had long enough to fix it, 30 years. Even when the live export trade goes to plan, there';s appalling cruelty, sheep are crammed in at approximately three to a square metre, travel for approximately one and a half square meters each, they';re standing in their own manure and urine for about month, ewes are giving birth to lambs who are trampled into the dung slurry, along with thousands of dead adult sheep while they';re thrown into the mincer, often alive and conscious to be spewed out into the sea, when they're accepted by the Arab countries on arrival they';re subjected to appalling brutality, such as beating and being thrown from two story vehicles and barbaric slaughter methods. Cattle have the tendons and joints in their legs slashed to bring them down and then are stabbed in the eyes. And also, while this disgraceful trade continues, slaughter houses here are suffering from lack of stock.
CORDEAUX:
Alright, Mary Anne, I';m going to hold you there and let the Prime Minister get in there with a comment.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, can I just say Mary Anne that I, of course, regard myself as the servant of the Australian people. You assert that the majority have made their views clear, I';m not aware of the basis of that claim. I know there';s a lot of concern expressed on talkback and I understand that and I';m very sensitive to it. When I said that this is the first time this type of thing has happened, it';s the first time that I can recall that a shipment, certainly in recent times, that a shipment like this has been rejected. I';m not disputing the fact that there has been controversy over the live sheep trade, I understand that. And I know there are a lot of people such as you who don';t think we should engage in it at all. I understand that and I';m not disputing that. I would take the view that it is an important trade and it does contribute to the livelihood of many Australians and it';s very easy if you';re not affected by such matters yourself in a direct way to say well we need to stop that trade. I mean, you';ve got to think of the impact of that on the livelihoods of many Australians in rural Australia and many of fellow citizens, they would have a different view. I agree with you that the most humane methods of transportation should be employed and I can assure you that arising out of this and we';ll be looking again at the methods used. But the problem here is that we haven';t been able to land the sheep – that';s the been the problem. And they';ve been floating around on the ocean now for weeks and weeks – that';s the problem here and that';s the issue we';re trying to solve and there';s no easy way out of it. But I don';t dismiss your concerns and I don';t take a dictatorial view at all. I';m just trying to explain that there are many people whose livelihood is affected by this and it';s all too easy sometimes to forget their position.
CORDEAUX:
Hello, Patrick.
CALLER:
Yes, good morning, Jeremy. Good morning to you, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
CALLER:
I have a question – will all GPs have the right to bulk bill this time round?
PRIME MINISTER:
Every GP has the right to bulk bill. There';s no suggestion that GPs don';t have the right to bulk bill. There is no suggestion of that. Medicare when it was introduced 20 years ago really had two principles. It had the principle of free access to a public hospital and it had the right to receive the Medicare rebate or the equivalent to the Medicare rebate when you were treated by a GP. It was never part of the original Medicare that absolutely everybody could be guaranteed bulk-billing because it was recognised by the Labor health minister at the time that that couldn';t be done. But there';s no restriction on a doctor of bulk-billing if he or she wants to, nothing wrong, I don';t know the basis of that…. doctors bulk bill according essentially to market circumstances. If you look at the bulk-billing figures around Australia, those areas of Australia that have lots of doctors have high levels of bulk-billing because there';s a lot of competition to provide the services and those parts of Australia that have fewer doctors have lower rates of bulk-billing because there is a shortage of supply and an excess of demand and naturally that makes it easier in a sense for a decision to be taken by some doctors not to bulk bill.
CORDEAUX:
Alright, Patrick. 8305 1323, the telephone number. Hello, Diana. Diana are you there?
CALLER:
I would like to say thank you very much to you, Mr Howard, because you';ve done everything since you';ve been in power with dignity. We respect your decisions, we have faith in what you do. And I';d just like to say nobody says thank you these days, they';re always willing to stick a knife in your back or whatever. So, thanks very much.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that';s very nice of you. I try. I don';t pretend every decision I';ve taken has been correct, but I try and fulfil my duties in a conscientious way.
CORDEAUX:
Isn';t it interesting that George Bush is suffering in the opinion polls and Tony Blair';s kind of fighting for his job all over the assertion that intelligence was not exactly honestly presented over the Iraqi situation, yet your stance has received great public support and your opinion poll ratings continue to go up. I wonder why, I wonder what you';re doing is right and what they're doing is wrong?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don';t want to start drawing comparisons, there are different countries in different circumstances. I have a lot of respect for both George Bush and Tony Blair particularly over their stance on Iraq.
PRIME MINISTER:
If I had my time again, I would not have behaved differently. I believe that Tony Blair was very courageous, particularly as a large section of his party disagreed with him, that was not the case with George Bush, his party was more united behind him. I think both of them displayed a great deal of courage and as far as the intelligence is concerned, let me repeat the statements I made at the time about the available intelligence were fully justified by the content of that intelligence advice. I did not exaggerate the intelligence. I can understand people disagreeing with my decision and I accept that in a democracy. But I want to say to my critics, and I';ve got plenty of those like Tony Blair and George Bush, I want to say to them that I didn';t exaggerate the intelligence. I might in their view have made the wrong call, I don';t accept I did and I';d make the same call again without a equivocation. I didn';t exaggerate the intelligence.
CORDEAUX:
Will I think in the court of public opinion, you got amazing support for that courageous decision which was right, the world is a better place without Saddam Hussein.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I mean, I do have to say again that if people who oppose my decision like Mr Crean, if their advice had been followed Saddam Hussein would still be running Iraq.
CORDEAUX:
Yep.
PRIME MINISTER:
Now, it';s all very well for them to say – oh but that wasn';t the principal justification – that';s true. But it';s the consequence. I mean, we are all accountable for the consequences of our decision whether you support something or oppose it. And I say again, those who opposed our course of action, if their advice had been listened to then Saddam Hussein would still be running Iraq.
CORDEAUX:
Now if you can just straighten out Papua New Guinea, Robert Mugabe and Kim Jong Il, the world';s going to be a really much better place. Nice to talk to you, sir.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
CORDEAUX:
Thank you for coming on the show.
[ends]