MITCHELL:
In our Sydney studio, the Prime Minister. Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Neil.
MITCHELL:
Bali first, Prime Minister. There seems to be new warnings on terrorism attacks, possibly around the anniversary of the events in Bali. Are you still going at this stage?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I am. My wife and I are still going. I understand everybody that';s been invited is still going. It is a dilemma, on the one hand it';s very important that there be an observance of the anniversary in Bali and it';s very important for those who lost their loved ones that they be part of it. It';s also important that I go as Prime Minister to show my concern and sympathy and ongoing support for the people who';ve lost so much. And also, it';s very important for Australian/Indonesian relations that we be seen together to be marking this terrible event. On the other hand, we have to keep on factually… providing factual information about the degree of danger in going to Indonesia.
MITCHELL:
Well is it dangerous…are the specific threats around Bali and the anniversary?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we have issued new and slightly heightened travel advisories and that is based on broad intelligence. We don';t at this stage have, to my understanding, there';s no specific intelligence available saying there';s going to be an attack but…
MITCHELL:
Do you feel it';s dangerous?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t personally feel unsafe.
MITCHELL:
Do you have advice to people intending to go the ceremony?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, they should be aware of what the travel advisory is but we fully understand why they are going and we want to make it as easy as possible for them. And as Prime Minister I';m informing them that I';m still going.
MITCHELL:
Is any part of the world really safe for travel?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, in a theoretical sense, some places are not, in practice, some places are not as safe as others. But you can't eliminate risk, Neil. I mean, you stay at home and something could go wrong. I mean, all of these things require a sense of proportion. One the one hand, if a government issues too many advisories and issues too many warnings, it gets criticised for causing panic and concern in the community. On the other hand, if we leave out a word and something goes wrong then forever and a day we';re blamed for not alerting people and saving the loss of life or injury, so it';s a very delicate balance.
MITCHELL:
There are a lot of people still going to Bali on holiday now…
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, there are and I understand that and that is their decision. Our obligation is on the basis of the security advice we have to give people degrees of warning. It is then up to them to take a decision.
MITCHELL:
Is, on this related issue, is there concern about Hamas having representatives within Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that';s a situation that our security people continue to have under review. I won';t say more than that.
MITCHELL:
Can I ask you about the United Nations.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
MITCHELL:
How relevant is the United Nations? I see that Alexander Downer';s talking about a need for radical fundamental change. What sort of change?
PRIME MINISTER:
We';ll he';s talking about having more permanent members and this is very similar to an idea I canvassed a few months ago where you left the five that have got the veto now keeping the veto because realistically they';ll never give it up. And then perhaps you could add another five permanent members that reflect the geo-political realities of the modern world and not the world of 1945 and that is to include countries like Japan and Indonesia and India and perhaps Brazil and perhaps Nigeria or other country from Africa.
MITCHELL:
Is it overstating it to say the UN';s relevance is on the line here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I think we once again need a sense of proportion. The UN does a lot of good work in a lot of areas and on many occasions it can provide the forum to broker an international peace deal, it can provide the means to marshal countries to intervene, that happened with East Timor. But in the end, the UN';s interventions are only effective if there are individual countries that are willing to be involved in that intervention and to lead it. I mean, I pose the rhetorical question – if Australia had not been willing to become involved in East Timor, does anybody imagine that other countries would have led that intervention? Of course they wouldn';t have. And, so, we should neither overstate or understate the relevance of the United Nations. And the other thing we shouldn';t do is to imagine that you can';t do anything to stop an evil event or to remove an evil regime without the involvement of the United Nations. And I hear the French and others complaining about the Americans and us on Iraq, I might remind them of the bombing of Serbia and the action to help the people of Kosovo was not carried out by the NATO countries, including France with the approval of the United Nations Security Council because the Russians said they would veto any resolution authorising that military action. So the relevant countries, including France just went ahead and did it. Now, in legal terms, that is exactly the same as what happened in Iraq. I mean, they… we couldn';t get the support of the United Nations Security Council, although they previously authorised sanctions and all sorts of things and it was a perfectly legal thing that we did. But it';s a bit hypocritical of others now who having themselves ignored the Security Council now turn around and say you must never do anything which does not involve the Security Council.
MITCHELL:
Just while we';re talking about Iraq, the reports I think out of London today, leaked reports on the weapons of mass destruction, there';s still nothing found. Do you still believe that weapons of mass destruction will be found in Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
I believe the intelligence we had at the time and that intelligence was credible about WMD capability…. The Iraq Survey Group, which has not yet completed its work, has I understand delivered an interim report. I haven';t seen that report and what';s coming out of London this morning can only at this stage be regarded as speculation. I would imagine that the Iraq Survey Group will do more work and when I get details of that and I';m in a position to say so, I will have something to say about it. But I can only repeat, and I repeat this very strongly, the intelligence we had at the time about their capability was very credible and very strong and I don';t retreat one iota from the decision that we took.
MITCHELL:
But you have told me since the war that you still believe weapons of mass destruction will be found. Do you still believe that?
PRIME MINISTER:
I would like to see the Iraq Survey Groups work, but I certainly believe that theere will be evidence found that they had programmes.
MITCHELL:
Are you concerned by the poll that shows that… well, half of Australians believe the war wasn';t justified and more than that think that you misled them about the reasons for sending the troops?
PRIME MINISTER:
It is inevitable because you didn';t immediately have large discoveries of weapons that there would be some doubt arise, but that doesn';t alter the validity of what we did. Am I concerned about…
MITCHELL:
… at the time.
PRIME MINISTER:
I beg your pardon?
MITCHELL:
The validity at the time. I mean…
PRIME MINISTER:
… Yeah, of course I did and interestingly 70% of people in that poll you';re referring to believe that I acted in good faith, 70%.
MITCHELL:
But in retrospect, was it the wrong thing to do?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, it wasn';t the wrong thing to do.
MITCHELL:
Why?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well a number of reasons. We have rid Iraq of somebody who was responsible for mass murder and torture over three to four decades. The people who continue to criticise our involvement, if their advice had been followed Saddam Hussein would still be running Iraq. If the advice that the Labor Opposition in this country of Mr Crean and Mr Rudd had been followed Saddam Hussein would still be running Iraq. Now I';m not saying that they were sympathetic to him.
MITCHELL:
But those aren't the reasons we were given for war. [inaudible] weapons of mass destruction, not to get rid of a dictator.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes you are right but that doesn';t mean that I cannot point to that fact, does it?
MITCHELL:
No except that your justification is now….
PRIME MINISTER:
I accept that the principal reason, not the only reason, and if you go back on what I said I did say the principal reason was the possession of weapons and my belief in relation to that was based upon the intelligence advice we had at the time. It was very strong, it largely came from British and American sources, I believed it was credible and strong as did others who had access to it. But that doesn';t alter the fact that if you';re asking me now about the issue that it';s illegitimate of me to point out that if the advice of people like Mr Crean and Mr Rudd had been followed Saddam Hussein would still be running Iraq. I mean that is a perfectly legitimate thing to say because it';s a fact.
[ad break]
MITCHELL:
I';ll try to be quick because there';s a lot of things I want to raise with the Prime Minister. Mr Howard, live exports, live animal exports, are they now in danger from Australia because of what';s happening in the Middle East and because of what';s happening in Portland with the protest?
PRIME MINISTER:
They shouldn';t be. This is a very important trade for Australia and whilst I share the distress of many people about the shipment that is stranded and the Australian Government is doing everything it can given that we no longer own the sheep to find an alternative destination for them. My latest advice is that fresh supplies of food continue to be taken onboard and that the condition of the sheep according to the veterinary advice we';ve had is good. But I do share the distress of many people about this and it worries me but we have to have a sense of proportion. We have a live sheep trade because the beliefs of the people we sell the sheep to about the method of slaughtering are such that they require the slaughtering to take place in their own country. That';s why they';re exported live and not as carcasses.
MITCHELL:
That';s another issue too, the method of slaughtering. Are you comfortable with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we have to be once again realistic. Methods of….slaughtering is slaughtering and we all are very heavy meat consumers, or most of us, and I think we have to avoid suggestions of hypocrisy.
MITCHELL:
So the live sheep or the live animal exports will continue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I believe they should continue. It';s a valuable trade for this country and whilst we should always endeavour to have the most humane conditions, we after all do breed animals for consumption and we shouldn';t, once again I repeat, we should not only have a sense of proportion but also avoid hypocrisy.
MITCHELL:
Catherine, go ahead please. You';re speaking to the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
Hello. My question';s I guess the same. I';ve had some sleepless nights worrying about these sheep. I feel like we';re being very barbaric actually in the way we';re treating our sheep and I don';t think we have to behave that way.
PRIME MINISTER:
Are you against the trade completely?
CALLER:
Well I don';t have enough information….
PRIME MINISTER:
No I understand that.
CALLER:
….but I certainly think we could give some guarantees.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I am told, and look Catherine I understand your sense of distress and I don';t dismiss those things at all, but I am told that the sheep are in good condition, that they continue to be fed. And inherently any transportation of live animals is going to cause a degree of distress and discomfort and that is obvious. It';s a question of making the conditions as comfortable as possible. Now short of stopping the trade altogether which I don';t think is justified and I don';t support, there will always be a certain level of that distress and discomfort. It';s a question of making it as decent as possible and it';s also a question of recognising that when an impasse such as now with the Corma arises you do your level best which we are I can assure you, we are really trying very very hard at the moment to find an alternative destination.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, another issue, tax. This proposition from your backbench that if overweight people lose weight that their Medicare levy could be reduced.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think that';s ridiculous, and unrealistic, and I don';t support it.
MITCHELL:
Glad to hear it.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean I hadn';t heard it…sorry who suggested that.
MITCHELL:
It';s reported in the Age today, group of backbenchers, Teresa Gambaro.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they haven';t come to me and….
MITCHELL:
They';ve gone to the Health Minister apparently.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I respect my backbench enormously as you….
MITCHELL:
As you would.
PRIME MINISTER:
As I would. And I don';t say that in a (inaudible) way but that degree of big brotherism I could not support.
MITCHELL:
Senator Guy Barnett supports it too apparently.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I am all for people losing weight when they';re overweight and as you know I';m all for exercise and I';m all for people having exercise regimes and better diet rather than going on pharmaceutical prescriptions and so forth. I think I';ve discussed this sort of thing with you before and Kerryn Phelps. But we';ve got to have a sense of proportion in our society and I think that';s an intervention too far for my liking.
MITCHELL:
Just also on tax the Tax Office wants people to dob in GST cheats. Do you think Australians will do that, do you think Australians should do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it varies. We are by nature reluctant to dob in, on the other hand where it is blatant and where you are suffering, namely the rest of us, I believe the Australian attitude is changing. In the end the individual';s got to make a judgement and it will depend upon the degree of abuse and the degree of outrage involved.
MITCHELL:
I see the Tax Office says they';re looking at a $2.6 billion compliance dividend, in other words cracking down and getting an extra $2.6 billion. Is there more there? I mean how much is being….
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it was always our belief that the GST would result in a more effective compliance regime. That was an argument in favour of the GST. Now I can';t quantify it but a significant compliance dividend from the GST would not surprise me. That kind of dividend conservatively estimated I might add was built into the calculations that were made by the Treasury at the time. It was one of the arguments in favour of the GST.
MITCHELL:
Steve. We';ll take another call. Steve, go ahead.
CALLER:
Good morning Prime Minister. Just one very simple question, Telstra. I live in a semi-rural area behind Mount Dandenong, and was told yesterday that the lines in our area are 50 years old and the only way we get action is if enough people complain about it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Who told you that?
CALLER:
It actually came from a Telstra liney…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t know whether it';s right, I mean I';m not saying your linesman';s misleading you, I don';t know. If you';d like to, where do you live?
CALLER:
I live in Macclesfield, behind Dandenong.
PRIME MINISTER:
Let me, I';ve got enough of the detail to identify the area, let me find out and if you leave your name and address with Neil we';ll try and let you know.
MITCHELL:
Hang on Steve, hang on a minute, we';ll get the details off air. Still tax Prime Minister, what about this proposition of people paying tax on credit cards, do you like that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I think we have enough tax at the moment…
MITCHELL:
No, this is being able to pay to their tax on…
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m sorry.
MITCHELL:
I have to agree with you, we';ve got enough tax.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, I heard somebody overnight talking about lifting the Medicare levy.
MITCHELL:
That was Kim Beazley.
PRIME MINISTER:
Kim Beazley. Well I think what Labor really wants to do in the health area is to lift the Medicare levy and limit or take away the 30 per cent tax rebate on private health insurance. It';s very interesting and this has largely gone by unnoticed when Lindsay Tanner made his speech last Friday one of the things he said was that Labor, and I quote his words, he said "Labor is reviewing the future of the Howard Government';s wasteful and regressive private health insurance rebate.” If you sound like a duck and you quack like a duck you';re going to be taken as duck and that sounds very much to me like somebody who is taking it for granted that if Labor wins they';ll either cut the rebate, severely means test it or get rid of it.
MITCHELL:
But Kim Beazley, I mean he';s not leader.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think he';s still parading his wares.
MITCHELL:
Do you think he might be running again?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don';t think he';s running again but I think he';s saying fellas, I';m still around.
MITCHELL:
… proposition was to raise the Medicare levy and oppose personal tax cuts.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the Medicare problem at a federal level in relation to health, the major challenges are really the availability of doctors. The big problem that is being argued by the Labor Party is in relation to levels of bulk billing. Now whilst I don';t regard that as the major issue, it';s an important issue, and I think there should be adequate levels of bulk billing, but if you look at the figures around the country bulk billing rates are higher where there are a lot of doctors irrespective of the socioeconomic composition of the area, for example in the metropolitan area of Sydney you have high levels of bulk billing, in safe Liberal seats, and also in safe Labor seats.
MITCHELL:
There';s also a crisis in the hospitals that we talked about last time. I mean we';ve had an enormous reaction to that discussion with people outlining case after case after case here in Victoria critical of the problem.
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m not in any way trying to walk away from the Commonwealth';s responsibilities in relation to the funding of hospitals. But Neil, we do not run the hospitals, I have no control over waiting lists.
MITCHELL:
So if we';ve got a big problem in Victorian hospitals is it the fault of our State Government?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they run them. We help fund them, we provide more money for public hospitals than do the states. Some figures came out two only days ago from an independent body, the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, which said for the fourth year under the previous five year Medicare agreement federal spending on state owned, run and controlled hospitals was greater than that of the states. Now I don';t object to this, and I';m perfectly happy as we had done for the next five years to increase our commitment, but it';s very difficult when we don';t actually run them. I mean it';s like asking the states to answer questions about how the Army is run, we don';t run the hospitals.
MITCHELL:
Gambling figures show significant increase in the last year, up over $15 billion. Are you still concerned by gambling?
PRIME MINISTER:
We';ll I';m concerned about a very small minority who wreck their lives though excessive gambling. I';m not a big gambler myself and I can never see the point of running the risk of wasting money on gambling, but that is a personal decision of mine and I don';t seek to impose that behavioural code or belief on other citizens, that';s my own personal belief and I gamble but very very rarely, largely each year on the Melbourne Cup and buy raffle tickets at Liberal Party fundraisers, which of course is a regular investment. But that';s about it for me, but I think there are some people whose lives are blighted and what we have to try and do is have an approach and set of programs that tries to help them.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, just to wrap up, we';re getting a few calls about Bali, presumably you will monitor that and reassess it, or your advisers will reassess whether you go?
PRIME MINISTER:
Obviously, but I wouldn';t want anybody to think other than that I want to go and I intend to go and I will go, absent some particularly serious deterioration in the situation and I can understand that those who lost their loved ones will want to do the same thing.
MITCHELL:
Thank you for your time, you nervous about the weekend?
PRIME MINISTER:
A little.
MITCHELL:
Your daughter getting married.
PRIME MINISTER:
A big event in any father's life, a very big event and she';s marrying a lovely bloke and I';m sorry that it just coincided with the AFL Grand Final but he';s a rugby union fanatic and they want to have their honeymoon and be back in time for the start of the world cup. So that';s the best explanation I can give but I';ll still be sort of interested in following the game.
MITCHELL:
So who';s your tip?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think, as a prediction, I think Brisbane will win.
MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay.
[ends]