BONGIORNO:
Hello and welcome to this special edition of Meet the Press coming from Brisbane International Airport, where the Prime Minister is stopping over from his few days at the South Pacific Forum in Auckland on his way to Beijing, where he'll have his first meeting with the new Chinese President. Today John Howard meets the press. Welcome back, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thanks, a very brief back.
BONGIORNO:
August 17 is the date that Alexander Downer our Foreign Minister nominated as a day of high terror alert in Indonesia. Is there any more information on whether this national day is particularly prone to a terrorist attack?
PRIME MINISTER:
You've said it. Because it is a national day there is thought to be particular danger. I don't have anything additional but given what happened at the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta it's only natural that there should continue to be a high level of terrorist alert in Jakarta and other parts of Indonesia. We may have captured Hambali, and that is a huge breakthrough, a huge breakthrough, but the terrorist threat still goes on and it's still going to be a big fight over a number of years.
BONGIORNO:
There's a report today that Australian intelligence played a part in intercepting the phone call that lead to the arrest of Hambali. Can we claim any credit there?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm always very reluctant to get into operational details and bear in mind that I've been away for a few days and I'm not going to get into operational matters either way. That doesn't mean I'm confirming or denying. I'm refraining from comment.
BONGIORNO:
OK. We do cooperate, though, don't we?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course, everybody cooperates. It's one of the great things about the relationship between Australia, the United States and Britain is the closeness of the intelligence relationship. In some respects, it's one of the most important things about those relationships now because intelligence is arguably more valuable than anything else in the day-to-day fight against terrorists.
BONGIORNO:
The Thai Prime Minister today is quoted as saying he's confident that Thailand has smashed the JI cell that was operating there and that was planning to attack the APEC meeting next month. Do you feel safer now about attending that meeting?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm going to the meeting unless there is some very powerful advice to the contrary. I don't particularly think about my own personal safety. I certainly believe that progress is being made against JI. And the capture of Hambali, he was the mastermind of Bali he's the main link man, or was, between al-Qaeda and JI - all of that is good news. As to whether you can say a book is being closed, let's just wait and see.
BONGIORNO:
One would imagine that if he is the mastermind the planning's already been done.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Paul, that is speculation.
BONGIORNO:
On Friday, the issue of compensation for the Bali victims came up. It was reported that the Government has ruled out a national Bali or terrorist victim compensation scheme or plan. Why has it?
PRIME MINISTER:
What we've decided to do is to pay the ongoing medical costs, a lot of travel costs, counselling. We are, of course, and have already met, the travel costs in association with memorial services and we've offered to pay the costs of very close relatives going to Bali on the anniversary. And we're also prepared to provide up to I think $5,000 in an individual case of emergency assistance for people who can't meet particular bills. But the package hasn't included a lump sum because it is an horrific event but it is an event that occurred overseas. And, of course, it does raise the question of whether whenever a person's life is taken overseas in circumstances where there's no link at all to the direct responsibility or behaviour of governments - the Australian Government - is it appropriate to pay a lump sum? Now, we've certainly been very keen to help with all the costs. And, in many cases, there will be a life-long expense that people will have and we're keen to help, particularly where artificial limbs and the like are concerned.
BONGIORNO:
Brian Deegan, the magistrate who lost his son in the bombing, says that that aspect of what the Commonwealth is offering is basically what Australian citizens get anyway through Medicare.
PRIME MINISTER:
Some of those expenses you get through Medicare - and that's right. But some of the other things you don't. They are discretionary and they are over and above what you get through Medicare.
BONGIORNO:
I guess one of the arguments that was put forward is the State of South Australia, for example, does include victims of overseas terror attacks, whereas other States don't in their crime victim compensation schemes. They thought that maybe the national government should fill the bill so that all Australians are treated equally.
PRIME MINISTER:
You've still got the question - what happens to some other people who are killed overseas. It's a difficult one, this. And different States have different laws. We have agreed to compensate the State medical systems for the additional costs of dealing with the Bali victims. When I was in Darwin recently, I announced some money that was going to be given to the Northern Territory to offset the costs even though, strictly speaking, that is a cost that ought to be borne by the States.
BONGIORNO:
And, of course, you have offered to pay for any victims and close relatives to go to the Bali commemoration.
PRIME MINISTER:
What we've said, for example, if you lost a son or a daughter we will pay for the mother and father and the brothers and sisters of that person who died. And not only the cost of going to the memorial service in Bali on October 12 but also any travel expenses that people have to the memorial service we are going to have in Canberra at the end of that week.
BONGIORNO:
I suppose going back to the point we were making earlier - the capture of Hambali - does that make the Bali commemoration any safer?
PRIME MINISTER:
It's a contribution. I hope that people who lost their loved ones in Bali will feel that Hambali's capture is some small additional measure of justice.
BONGIORNO:
Just before we go in this segment, Margaret Jackson, the chairwoman of Qantas, today says that we're speaking too much about terror. She particularly points to the impact on Qantas of discussion last week about surface-to-air missiles. She says obviously the public has got a right to know but maybe it's safer for the public not to know some things.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't have that luxury, Paul. I respect Margaret Jackson a lot. She's an outstanding Australian business leader but I'm in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation. I was asked a question about it and I had to give an honest answer. I can't rule out the possibility. It's not likely and I've said all along, things are safer but you know, looking at the news reports that came out of America a couple of weeks ago - there was argument whether Australia was correctly referred to - the media, the opposition, everybody else, is onto any suggestion that we're not coming completely clean with the public. If we started weighing up whether we'd keep the public informed or not of things we would properly, in my view, get into trouble and be criticised. I'm going to err on the side of full disclosure. But I hope to do it in a way that's not melodramatic. But I'm sorry that there is this problem with the airline industry but it's a function of kind of the life we now face.
BONGIORNO:
Time for a break. When we come back, we'll discuss with the Prime Minister his trip to China and North Korea's nuclear threat.
[commercial break]
BONGIORNO:
You're on Meet the Press with the Prime Minister. Mr Howard, you have praised the role of China in trying to broker a nuclear disarmament of North Korea but historically China, of course, has been an accomplice really in helping North Korea develop both its nuclear capacity and its missile capacity.
PRIME MINISTER:
That's right, but you have to deal with the here and now, and the here and now is that China is playing a very constructive role and I believe that China wants North Korea's nuclear ambitions to be limited. She sees a national interest for China in that occurring, and all the evidence available to me is that China and the United States are working together quite well on this. A six-power meeting involving the two Koreas, China, Japan, Russia and the United States is a big breakthrough. And in the long-term China knows that working with the Americans and others to bring about the disarmament nuclear-wise of North Korea is in China's interests.
BONGIORNO:
Does Australia support any notion of a non-aggression pact signed by other nuclear states - for example the US, China, Britain and Russia - to assure North Korea that it won't be attacked by nuclear missiles or nuclear weapons?
PRIME MINISTER:
Our view is that we want North Korea not to have nuclear weapons - that's the objective and I guess you have to have an open mind as to what methodologies are employed or combination of approaches are employed. The first and most important thing is to get the major players constructively engaged and we have made progress on that front. You can't rule any particular strategy out - I think that's silly to do so. But it requires a change of heart by North Korea. It certainly means that China must continue to be involved because China is the most decisive influence on North Korea and the combination of China and the United States working constructively together - and this, in a way, is where Australia can help - because we clearly have a very close relationship with the United States but we also have a very close relationship - and an influential one for our size - with China as well.
BONGIORNO:
It was reported during the week that America and indeed China may ask Australia to provide weapons inspectors for verification of any disarmament. Would we be happy enough to provide that?
PRIME MINISTER:
We would look at that, yes. We would be a good international citizen. We have capacity and, if we are required, just as we are involved in the Iraq search team in Iraq, if we have the capacity and, to the extent of what we have, we would want to help, yes.
BONGIORNO:
Now when you went up to Asia a couple of weeks ago I think the message out of Japan and South Korea was that they preferred diplomacy to any threat of military intervention. And the talk of intercepting North Korean vessels seemed to be put on the back-burner - the so-called PSI - I can never remember what it stands for - the initiative to intercept North Korean boats. What is the status of that idea at the moment?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it is something that in certain contingencies might occur, but everybody is in favour of diplomacy. Everybody is in favour of trying to reach a peaceful, agreed, lasting outcome - and we have made progress. And in those circumstances, whilst I can't say to you that there will never be circumstances in which the intervention of which you spoke about - the activity of which you spoke - will be employed, at the moment the emphasis if on trying to reach an agreed outcome through the six-power discussions and we wouldn't be doing anything to interrupt the forward momentum of that process.
BONGIORNO:
But the September exercises are going on.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but...
BONGIORNO:
There is a message there in itself, isn't there?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think to a limited degree, but there are a lot of things you do in preparation for possible contingencies that don't occur and which we hope never occur.
BONGIORNO:
Under Secretary Armitage during the week seemed to admit that perhaps the way America was talking to the world in the run-up to Iraq got a lot of people off-side. Do you the think the same would apply to the North Korean situation in the sense that if President Bush had not described North Korea as a member of the 'axis of evil' it may not have rushed to nuclear rearm?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, but the process was already under way, Paul. (Laughs) They were on that path before that speech was made. That's my understanding. And the fact is that North Korea has openly breached her obligations under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Unlike some other countries that have never signed that treaty, North Korea has breached its obligations.
BONGIORNO:
Just going to the South Pacific Forum - you got a new title while you were over there - 'Hurricane Howard'. It was suggested in some reports that Sir Michael Somare wasn't all that happy with Australia. Well, in the end you seem to have gotten what you wanted. But have we got a lot of resentful neighbours at the moment?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't believe so, no. This was a great meeting. It's the most engaged Pacific Forum meeting I've been to in seven years. You had the sense that for the first time the Forum sees itself as having a very serious role to play in helping the countries of the region. This is coming off the back of a very effective intervention in the Solomon Islands. Greg Urwin will make an outstanding Secretary-General. There was nothing wrong - let me say - with the other candidates, but Greg has had almost a lifelong diplomatic experience in the Pacific. He is not just some blow-in from Canberra, as I pointed out to them. He is a person who is deeply immersed in the Pacific. He is married to a Samoan lady. He has been based in the Pacific. He has been high commissioner in different countries. And he is really a very dedicated member of the Pacific community and I think the combination of that and the new relevance of the Forum means that it's going to pack a stronger wallop in the future, and that's a good idea.
BONGIORNO:
I was quite surprised to see - I suppose when you think about it you shouldn't be surprised - that Australia has put something like $20 billion in aid into the South Pacific over three decades.
PRIME MINISTER:
We've put an enormous amount of aid.
BONGIORNO:
And I guess the Solomons is costing us about $300 million.
PRIME MINISTER:
$200 to $300 million a year.
BONGIORNO:
Is there a fear or a concern that when our police pull out that corruption will return?
PRIME MINISTER:
The challenge of the mission is to make sure that we not only catch the criminals and gather the guns but also that we leave behind an infrastructure of governance that prevents corruption reappearing. And I don't apologise for saying to any countries that receive Australian aid that increasingly a condition of that aid will be higher standards of governance and a rooting out of corruption. I owe that to the Australian people - it's their money. They want to help countries but they don't want their money wasted. And I'm on their side when it comes to that. And I think they're quite right to want that condition imposed.
BONGIORNO:
Prime Minister, time for another break. When we return, we ask is ethanol driving the taxpayers' dollar as far as it should?
[commercial break]
BONGIORNO:
Welcome back to Meet the Press. Prime Minister, whatever else about the ethanol debate in recent weeks, it's certainly raised the whole issue of the fuel extender. Now Dick Honan says that without a mandated 10% there is no future for the ethanol industry in Australia. Is he ever going to get that mandated 10%?
PRIME MINISTER:
We will be very unlikely to have any mandating and I've made that pretty clear, other people in the Government have made that pretty clear, not only to Mr Honan's Manildra but also to others. And as for mandating 10%, I am surprised to hear that people are now talking about mandating 10%. I know there's been debate about the 10% cap, which, incidentally, Mr Honan's company didn't want. They wanted mandating, which we haven't agreed to, and they didn't want the 10% cap, which we have agreed to. It rather put these claims of favouritism for Mr Honan into fairly sharp relief.
BONGIORNO:
I suppose it raises the question of what did he get for his $300,000 to the Coalition parties in the last 14 months.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, anybody who supports the Liberal Party financially can only hope to get one thing - and that is a good government. They won't get any special favours and I've just illustrated that this particular donor didn't get any special favours. Because he has been, as I understand it, a substantial contributor to the Labor Party as well.
BONGIORNO:
I think in the same period he gave $66,000.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, yeah, that's more than a lot do. But anyway, look, Paul, I think I've just illustrated to you we have done no special favours. But let me say in Mr Honan's defence is that he has been a successful businessman, he employs a lot of people and he's invested a lot of money in jobs in regional areas of Australia. Now I am in favour of that, no matter who does it. And this idea that you don't encourage people to take risks and invest and employ people and this idea that people who do that are sort of singled out for attack, is not really in Australia's future best interests.
BONGIORNO:
There is no doubt that when Labor introduced a policy to encourage the ethanol industry it seemed to be the flavour of the month - green and safe. But that doesn't seem to be any more, does it?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think that what the Labor Party has done here is that in order to try and score a cheap political point against me they've sort of run, or given the impression of running, contrary to a past policy. We had a policy in the last election by the year 2010 of getting a target of 350 million litres of biofuels, and it's off the back of that policy - from domestic sources, incidentally - that we decided to take action to stop the importation of cheap ethanol from Brazil. That's the genesis of that decision.
BONGIORNO:
Coming to the policy - Cornell University says that ethanol is not renewable and it is not cleaner than other fuel sources. In other words, two of the big advantages that it seems to have had at least are being questioned. Do you'd think we need to revisit whether we should have an ethanol industry, at least a taxpayer-funded one?
PRIME MINISTER:
Paul, the conventional wisdom until fairly recently was that it was environmentally friendly. And it was my understanding that that was bipartisan. And I think it still is to some degree. I'm not quite sure. I'm confused, frankly, as to what Labor's policy is on this. I mean, I know their policy is to attack John Howard. I'm clear about that. But I'm not quite clear what their policy is for the national interest. So you ask me should you always keep things like this under assessment and review. Yes. Has it been my understanding to date that there are advantages in the use ethanol environmentally? Yes, it has been. Obviously if we are persuaded to the contrary, we might have a different view. But to date we have seen merit in all of this.
BONGIORNO:
The Australian Automobile Association says very shortly it will be putting out a list of cars that should not put ethanol up to the 10% limit in them at all. In other words that ethanol would be very dangerous. I suppose taxpayers would have a right to say, why should my taxes be used to develop something that will cost me money in running my car.
PRIME MINISTER:
This is all part of the debate. I can't argue with the motorist who, if he was persuaded and who has clear, cogent evidence to support that persuasion, of course he'd have an argument. But this is all part of the unfolding debate. And I'll be interested to see what he's got to say. On the other hand, I understand a trial of the sale of ethanol in north Queensland by Caltex has been quite successful and there are still an enormous number of people who believe very strongly that there are environmental advantages and providing the thing is properly monitored it should occur. But this is part of the ongoing discussion and we ought to be doing that rather than overpoliticising the debate.
BONGIORNO:
The health debate is cranking up in a big way today. Two of the premiers, in fact all of the premiers, Labor premiers at that, are calling for the hospital funding program to the put on the agenda at COAG. Will you be doing that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Paul, we've made an offer, a 17% real increase - that's 17% more than inflation - and over the last five years even though we don't run these hospitals - we don't own them, we don't control them, we don't influence them - we've contributed more money than the States. And there's evidence that they've withdrawn funding and we've increased ours. All I'm saying to the premiers, the whole six of them, plus the two chief ministers, is if you are interested in the health of the people who live in your States and the strength of the public hospitals, why don't you match the generosity of the Commonwealth offer? But it's a bit rich. We put money on the table, we asked them to match it. Their reply is, "Put more on the table." Their reply is not, "I will match it". And they're public hospitals...
BONGIORNO:
Will it be debated at COAG?
PRIME MINISTER:
Everything gets debated in a way at COAG. But people should understand we've had an offer on the table now for two or three months. I wrote to the premiers two or three months ago and I laid out in full detail what we were prepared to do. And I'm still waiting for the States to be as generous to their own hospitals as the Commonwealth is.
BONGIORNO:
Just briefly, because just about out of time. There is also some criticism of your Health Minister not attending a forum, a high-powered health forum.
PRIME MINISTER:
It is a political stunt. It's designed to take political pot shots, just as Mr Beattie's advertisements in the Queensland press are today. I mean, I'm looking at whether the Federal Government shouldn't provide through its advertisements the facts on this, given that the States have started that silly game.
BONGIORNO:
Prime Minister, thanks very much for joining us today. I wish you a safe return from China. And that's it for Meet the Press. Until next week, it's goodbye from Meet the Press.
[ends]