CORDEAUX:
Jeremy Coredeaux with you, and it';s good to have the Prime Minister, sir how are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m very well Jeremy.
CORDEAUX:
It';s good to hear you. And I don';t know if we';re getting you loud enough there, we';ll just make a couple of little adjustments.
PRIME MINISTER:
That';s okay.
CORDEAUX:
We';re just fixing the levels here. Let';s carry on, I understand that yesterday afternoon you had a chance to talk to Megawati Soekarnoputri about this terrible in incident in Jakarta. What did you discuss, what did she have to say about it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I rang her from Aurukun in Cape York and I told her how much the Australian Government and the Australian people sympathise with her government and her people for what had happened. She told me that she strongly suspected that Jemaah Islamiyah was responsible and overnight there appears to be further confirmation of that. She also thanked me for the assistance we';ve already made available of Australian Federal Police officers who are expert in crime scene investigation work and co-incidentally there';ve been a number of AFP officers on the ground in Jakarta so they were able to swing immediately into action. We both agreed that the war against terrorism was going to go on for a long time, and that this incident, this terrible attack was just another reminder of how indiscriminate and arbitrary terrorists are because this was in proportionate terms almost totally an attack on Indonesians, one or two non-Indonesians have died and there are some non-Indonesians amongst the injured, but almost all of the people involved, killed or injured, were Indonesians. Now people should stop and think about that for a moment, and here you have an extremist Islamic group apparently attacking and killing fellow Muslims. They';re not attacking and killing Westerners in the main on this occasion, they';re attacking and killing fellow Muslims. And that means that this is a war that must be waged by Muslims and Christians and Jews and all people of good will around the world against fanatics, and we are dealing with fanatics and we have to keep the thing in proper context as we work our way through this terrible challenge.
CORDEAUX:
This will inevitably strike a blow at this very fragile democracy of Indonesia will it not?
PRIME MINISTER:
That is a danger but that is the purpose. The fanatics in Jemaah Islamiyah have nothing but ill will towards the people of Indonesia and the democracy of that country, and we in Australia must redouble our efforts to help the Indonesians on the path towards democracy. This is a time to strengthen not weaken our links with Indonesia, this is a time to work as closely as possible with the Indonesian authorities and the Indonesian people, recognising that the vulnerability that that country has, it';s a very big country, it';s not as tightly governed in a national sense as a smaller country would be and therefore the security risks are much greater.
CORDEAUX:
The spiritual leader of Australia';s Islamic community, Sheik Hilaly, was reported as saying that extremists preaching social disharmony and intolerance are visiting Australia specifically to target young Muslims and the Immigration Department, he says anyway, is failing to vet these Islamic speakers who are brainwashing young Muslims with extremist doctrine. What do we do about that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t know whether that is a complete picture of what is occurring, I';m not sure that it is. You always have attention here don';t you between the free movement of people and the free expression of ideas and the protection of our country. We pride ourselves on people being able to come and go providing they';re not breaking the law. There is a point of course when you preach hatred and vilification and you preach terror and you breach insurrection, well you can be breaking the law in those circumstances, let me say that this that what he had to say is being taken very careful note of and if there is any further specific information that he has then that should be made available as soon as possible to the relevant authorities.
CORDEAUX:
But in any case would we might perhaps be doing more to vet these speakers?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we are doing quite a lot already, don';t let any of your listeners imagine that especially since the 12th of October last year we haven';t been watching very very carefully indeed the movement of people in and out of Australia and what happened in Jakarta a few days ago will only intensify our efforts to do that. But we are a democracy and we do have to defend the right of people to move freely and express their views, even if those views are strongly critical of contemporary society, that provided it doesn';t cross over the line and become an incitement to hatred or violence.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, I don';t know if you';ve seen this but a few days ago turned up in the Australian a picture of Wenders photograph of Ayers Rock and it';s being displayed along with a section in the book that he's written I believe, it';s being displayed in the Museum of Contemporary Art in Sydney. He is now looking down the barrel of a $55,000 fine because this photograph shouldn';t have been taken and in the Australian today they';ve actually had to digitally remove Ayers Rock so that they too would not be fined for taking a picture of it. I mean this is Australia, and Ayers Rock, or Uluru or call what you like, it';s an Australian icon, I mean it';s just a national natural treasure. Why are we fining people for taking a picture of it?
CORDEAUX:
It does on the face of it seem strange, and it';s not something that';s easily to be defended on the face of it, I would like to get a little more background on precisely what happened before I go further than saying that.
CORDEAUX:
Yes, it';s pretty scary. Sir would you take some telephone calls?
PRIME MINISTER:
I will.
CORDEAUX:
Brian, are you there?
CALLER:
I am Jeremy, how are you?
CORDEAUX:
Yes, the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
CALLER:
I have a problem with superannuation, back when, I think it was about when GST came in you promised that as of last financial year you were going to give $1,000 - or people put a personal contribution of $1,000, they were on the low incomes, the government would match it and it cut out at around $32,000 on a pro rata basis. That has been shelved supposedly, it still hasn';t been ratified and I just want to know if and when it is going to be and why it has taken so long with all due respect when you guys want something to do with your super it happens you know with the click of the hands, and a click of a fingers and it happens overnight, when it';s something for us poor low workers you know it happens to take years and years and then you still have to sit on your hands and not make a decision on it. Could you answer that question?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I'd be very happy to. Subject to my checking that this is the exact status of it, is my understanding that the reason that hasn't been enacted is that it's been blocked in the Senate by the opposition parties, along with some other changes on superannuation with which they disagree very strongly. Now, that is recollection without checking and I will, as soon as I get off the program, check and if there's any variation on that I will let the program know and I'll let you know.
CORDEAUX:
Fine. I think it was more to do with the 15 per cent…
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah but I think we've put them in all together and I've… I mean, it may be that we're in the process of severing the one from the other, but it may not be and I'd just like to have that checked. But there's certainly been no policy reversal. It's still our intention to do that because it was promised at the time of the last election.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, I understand that the private members bill that is designed to kind of pull back the benefits of the Members of Parliament superannuation fund. What do you reckon will happen with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not aware that there is a private members bill. I mean, people are entitled to move if they wish, and there were some changes made to the superannuation benefits about two years ago which mean that people entering Parliament for the first time at the last election would have a less generous superannuation scheme.
CORDEAUX:
I don't know if you saw 60 Minutes not last Sunday but the Sunday before which dealt with the live animal export trade in Australia. I can't think of anything it has run as hot as that subject on this program, there's an awful lot of feeling about the need to ban such a cruel, cruel trade. Did you in fact see it, or did you get a report on it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I saw parts of it, I was travelling at the time and I only saw a summary of it and some extracts from it. And I have had a report on it and your listeners may or not be aware of a statement that was made by the Minister for Agriculture, he's asked the quarantine inspection service, that's AQIS to investigate the allegations and he's aware of that program on 60 Minutes. He points out in his statement that the deaths have halved from 0.3 per cent of stock shipped in 1999 to 0.11 to date in 2003, but that investigation is continuing. I found the images understandably distressing as most viewers would have and if there are ways in addition to what is now being done to prevent that kind of thing occurring in the future, then I would want to see those measures introduced.
CORDEAUX:
And I think that's what you want to talk about, Cathy, is it?
CORDEAUX:
Yes, Jeremy and good morning Prime Minister. Look I want to raise that issue. I saw the 60 Minutes program and to me they were scenes from many evil torture chambers and apparently the scenes they weren't allowed to see it because children would be watching animals getting their tendons cut to disable them and then their eyes were poked out with swords. I mean, that is absolutely frightful. You have [inaudible] I'm sure expect [inaudible] RSPCA and he is so adamant about this dreadful conditions once these poor animals even get to these places, it's bad enough on board this ship but when they get there it's just hell, and he wants you to ban the trade.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is a big thing. I understand the concern but people should bear in mind, of course, that it's a very valuable and important trade. It's worth about a billion dollars a year in export earnings and employs about 9,000 people, particularly valuable to farming in regional areas of Australia. So I deplore cruelty, any ordinary human being would and does. But we have to keep these things in perspective, we have to remember that you are talking about a very valuable economic asset and surely the goal is to make the trade as humane as possible isn't that the goal and that's the best thing to do rather than ban it… but you ban it you create a lot of disadvantage for many Australians who are already living in fairly disadvantaged circumstances. But your point, Cathy, about eliminating cruelty - I have to agree with that 100 per cent.
CORDEAUX:
I mean, even the unions would rather that the animals were slaughtered here and sent for processing…..
PRIME MINISTER:
We have humane conditions of slaughter and I mean, we have to be realistic about this, our methods of slaughter are more humane now than they have been in the past, but we have to understand the process that's involved in any abattoir and be realistic about it.
CORDEAUX:
Yeah, but at least have a look at it.
PRIME MINISTER:
I certainly have the same reaction to cruelty of animals appals me and if there are ways that we can reduce that, and I will discuss this matter with Mr Truss and it will be raised in Cabinet amongst our under the line items which are those items that are not on a fixed agenda for discussion next week.
CORDEAUX:
The Prime Minister is my guest. Running around today and a bit yesterday was this story about Dr John Hewson - one of the nation's most powerful men, former Opposition Leader, Dr John Hewson who says the Liberals want to do me in. He says he's ill and the Liberal Party's spreading rumours about him. It all sounds a little paranoid, does it not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Jeremy I saw those stories, I don't want to say much except that any suggestion that I or somebody on my staff or anybody at my instigation has been spreading any rumours about John's personal life is completely false. John and I have some differences on policy issues and that's normal and he's got a right to have his view, and others have got a right to have their views. But I wish him well; I don't have any ill will towards him of any kind. We did work together very closely some years ago, he was once on my staff. He didn't, you know, he didn't choose to stay in Parliament after he ceased being the leader. But I have no ill will towards him and nobody to my knowledge is trying to him any injury. I can only express my good will towards him and Carolyn.
CORDEAUX:
These cuts at the ABC, the axing of the BTN, which did really look a bit like small potatoes when you could think of lots of other things you could cut at the ABC if you really wanted to save money. It seems like that was a political decision to cut that particular program because it will put the most heat on Senator Alston. Have you got a comment on it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the first comment I've got is that we haven't cut the ABC's budget. In the last election we promised to maintain their budget in real terms, that is protected against inflation, and we have done that. And these cuts, these decisions are the internal decisions of the ABC, they are not the fault of the Government. And the ABC can not expect to do better than receive what we promised in the election we would give them, and that is more than $700 million of funding, indexed against inflation. Now, that's what we said we would do, that is what we have done and not a penny less or, as it happens, a penny more.
CORDEAUX:
Are you convinced that money is well spent?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have disagreements with program balance on the ABC. By and large the ABC makes a big contribution. I support the ABC';s role as a public broadcaster. I believe in having an ABC. I have never opposed the notion of a public broadcaster providing an input. But the ABC has to live within a budget. The ABC has no right to ever-increasing amounts of federal funding. It is entitled to plan on the basis of commitments made by the Government. We gave a commitment in the lead up to the 2001 election that we would maintain the ABC';s funding in real terms. We have done that and any cuts that are made to programs by the ABC as a result of decisions they have taken, they have to carry the responsibility for and they should not in any way endeavour to construct a situation where in some way the Government is to blame for these programs getting fewer resources. If people are unhappy that these programs have disappeared, they should take their complaints to the ABC management, not to the Government.
CORDEAUX:
Jenny, here';s the Prime Minister. Jenny? I don';t know where Jenny is. Let me try Marianne. Hi Marianne.
CALLER:
Good morning Jeremy. Good morning John.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Marianne.
CALLER:
I';d like to raise two things very quickly if I could. First of all, the live export trade. You are more or less justifying it on the grounds that it brings in money.
PRIME MINISTER:
Can I just say I';m not justifying cruelty, but I';m defending the trade and I';m saying that it';s not an answer to get rid of the trade altogether. The answer is to try and make it more humane.
CALLER:
Well it';s been shown very clearly that it can';t be done humanely. They';ve had 25 years to get their act together. Hugh Worth has clearly stated that what they';re doing, the decline, if you or I did it to our dogs we would be jailed for it. So if you say it should be justified on the grounds of income, you';re saying that provided I';m making plenty of money out of committing a crime, it';s okay. That';s virtually what you';re saying. They';ve admitted it themselves, that their truck which is the newest, state-of-the-art, world-class transporter, 41 per cent of the cattle on board of it died and the [inaudible] that they were standing in was 31cm deep. That is the best they can do. And it';s commonsense in any case to transport an animal humanely halfway across the world is going to cost almost as much to transport a human being halfway across the world humanely. And how much does that cost? A lot more than the value of their carcass. That';s obvious. It';s very plain that this trade cannot be conducted humanely, so if you condone it, you';re condoning the commission of a crime on the grounds that they make a billion dollars a year. It';s as simple as that John.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no I don';t think it is as simple as that.
CALLER:
I';m afraid it is.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t accept that you can';t make it more humane. I do accept that making it more humane is something that everybody should endeavour to do, but it';s just not as easy as you suggest to dismiss the importance of an industry that provides a livelihood to tens of thousands…
CALLER:
[inaudible] provides a very good livelihood…
PRIME MINISTER:
No but it provides a living. I mean I am asked as Prime Minister every day to do things to help people who are not doing as well as other Australians and therefore I don';t likely say I';m going to terminate an industry overnight that provides a livelihood and provides sustenance and provides support for many communities, particularly in country and regional Australia that have been badly affected by other conditions beyond their control. I think my obligation is to try and work to ensure that the concerns that were raised by that program and properly arise out of practices in the industry are addressed as much as we can.
CORDEAUX:
Marianne, thanks for the call. I know that you';re just back from Cape York Peninsula where you';ve gone and had a first hand look at the situation which is intolerable in a country like Australia, and for I don';t know how long we';ve been talking about it on this program, where Australians have been able to look the other way at domestic violence at an incredible level in that part of the world caused by alcohol, if you can solve this one Prime Minister, you will be a genius.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the genius if it is solved will lie in the Aboriginal leadership in these communities. The big change and the good news is that the leadership in these communities has decided that they have to help themselves as well as properly asking for help and understanding from the Government and the rest of the Australian community. What has happened in these communities is that they have decided to place restrictions on alcohol and they have been supported in their decisions by the relevant law-making authority which is the Queensland Government. You now have several communities where all that can be consumed of alcohol is what is consumed in the canteens. You can';t take it away. You can';t drink it in public. The change in the space of a few months has been enormous, so I was told. Attendance rates at school have gone up. The children more often than not now go to school having had breakfast. Previously they went to school on empty stomachs. They were listless and disinterested. The truancy rates were very high.
CORDEAUX:
The violence…
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m told that the treatment of injuries from bashings has dropped dramatically in these communities. Now these trials or these experiments or these changes, whatever you want to call them, have now been going for periods of six months I believe in the Cape and Aurukun and two or three months in the case of Napranum, another one of the communities, and the results so far are very promising. And I noticed yesterday the liveliness of the children. They weren';t listless. They were well cared for. And it was a pretty encouraging experience. Now it';s only a couple of days, it';s only two communities, it';s only six months and two months and we';ve virtually only scratched the surface, but the big thing is that these communities understand that no leader, no Prime Minister, nobody can do for a community what it won';t do for itself. And that was really the message I tried to convey yesterday and I';m very pleased that that message had been acted on long before I arrived.
CORDEAUX:
I know that the Council, particularly Noel Pearson, was most heartened by the way you';ve taken it on personally. Let me ask you this quickly – the final question – Amrozi gets sentenced today. Do you think he should be put to death?
PRIME MINISTER:
That is a matter for the court. Whatever comes out of it is a matter for the court processes of Indonesia, and it would be better if I withheld any comment until the verdict is given.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, thank you again for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]