CORDEAUX:
It is with a great deal of pleasure that I welcome the Prime Minister of Australia. Sir, how are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm very well Jeremy.
CORDEAUX:
Looking at this, I don't expect you to kind of give some advice to the Opposition about their leadership tousle, but with what is it - three triggers for a double disillusion on the table, it must be an absolutely exquisite moment, or an irresistible moment?
PRIME MINISTER:
Jeremy, I'm not going to talk about what's happening in the Labor Party. Whatever I say will be seen as self-serving therefore I'm going to refrain from any comment at all. As far as an early election is concerned, I don't intend to have one. There are some double dissolution triggers but the possibility of having a double dissolution remains up until quite close to the normal time for having an election next year. The Australian public in my experience doesn't like early elections for no good public policy reasons. If the public thinks that a Prime Minister or a Premier is calling a very early election just to score some political advantage without a good public policy rationale, not only does the public get very irritated but it also is disposed to punish the Prime Minister or the Premier who does that and I can't honestly say to the public right at the moment that there is a good public policy reason for having an early election. It's not quite 18 months, it'll be 18 months on the 10th of May since the last election. Three years is a very short period of time in any event, so putting all of that together I really don't at present contemplate an early election and those people who are running around saying that I'm thinking about having a double dissolution because of disarray in the Labor Party really are wide of the mark.
CORDEAUX:
But you've got I guess balance all that you've just said with the enormous frustration of not being able to get the fundamental things through when you have the mandates to get them through.
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that but the point I was making is that there's a capacity much closer to the normal event to do something about that if I was disposed to do so.
CORDEAUX:
If they thought that you were going to go to an early election they might be more disposed to allow these things through.
PRIME MINISTER:
My experience has been that they have locked things for ideological reasons and the threat of elections doesn't appear to make any difference. But Jeremy, I don't want to sound repetitious but I just want to make the point to your listeners and to the broader Australian public that these reports that I'm sitting around contemplating a double dissolution right at the moment is just wrong.
CORDEAUX:
On something else, we've been running a poll, a listener poll, on what we believed you had said about running about making the burning of the Australian flag a criminal offence...
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm probably doing badly on the poll.
CORDEAUX:
Yes, that's what I was about to tell you. I mean most people, like 90 per cent, 92 per cent of people who have logged in on that poll want it to be an offence, they want it to be a jailing offence or even people being stripped of their citizenship. They feel very strongly about it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah. Well I respect that strength of feeling and I know that I'm in a minority in what I'm saying but I do hold to what might be called an old-fashioned view on something like this that much and all as I detest people who burn the Australian flag it does in my thinking come into the category of an expression of an opinion, not an expression I'd agree with, but I am influenced by that ancient saying of Voltaire when he said I don't agree with what he says, but I'll defend to the death his right to say it. And in a way the burning of a flag is an expression of option and much and all as I despise the expression and I abhor the deed, I'm not sure in an open liberal democracy it's something that should attract a criminal offence. Now I know that the majority of people don't agree with me but it's a view I've held for a long time and I'd be a hypocrite if I changed just because the majority opinion was going in the other direction.
CORDEAUX:
It's also true that if people did stand to go to jail for the act that many might do it who otherwise wouldn't.
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh you would create a whole new slather of martyrs in the community and for no really good purpose. I don't think the present absence of a criminal sanction encourages people to burn the flag. My fear is that, quite apart from the principle that I've just stated, my fear is that if you bought in such a law you would in fact provoke more people to do it and you would then begin to have quite a debate in the community about the wisdom of having such a sanction and over time I think that would probably result in some shift in public opinion and I can't see what is achieved by it, it doesn't happen very often, I know it is offensive, it's offensive to me and I'm sure it's offensive to most Australians but whether you go from that to making it a criminal offence, there are many things that are offensive to me and offensive to Australians that you don't automatically make criminal offences and this really is, in my judgment, in that category. Now I know I'm in the minority but it's a view I've had for some time.
CORDEAUX:
My special guest is the Prime Minister. Now this Korean situation seems to be getting more and more tense, I would imagine you're watching it with a great deal of concern and interest.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I think there are a number of things that are encouraging. The first is that the Koreans and the Americans have had a talk and that talk was organised and hosted by the Chinese, that's good. Because China should get involved, China has a lot of influence on North Korea. My judgment is that the North Koreans would have taken notice of the strength and the resolution and the determination the Americans displayed over Iraq. I said before the war against Iraq started that if the world couldn't deal with Iraq what hope did it have of dealing with North Korea? I said that on numerous occasions and my assessment is that North Korea has probably had a look at Iraq and has said well the Americans are willing to take a firm stand, we have to treat this issue seriously. Nobody wants a war over North Korea, the Americans certainly don't. What we want is to prevent North Korea becoming a nuclear state and what has to happen is that North Korea is to take the steps to persuade not only the Americans, but us as well because it's in our region, and the rest of the world that it has turned over a new leaf, will not endeavour to become a nuclear state and if that can occur well we can make some real progress but it's very dangerous as an issue and it's one that is exercising a lot of our attention.
CORDEAUX:
If they don't respond rationally, the North Koreans, what would your reaction be to a pre-emptive strike by the Americans on their nuclear installation which is clearly being used, at least in rhetoric, as a threat.
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not going to try and hypothesise about that because that's all it is at the present time, words are analysed and treated very seriously on an issue like this, particularly when you've got a Prime Minister, what I'm going to say is very positive and that is that we have to keep up our diplomatic pressure to try and get North Korea to see the sense of engaging in a positive dialogue with the rest of the world and abandoning its nuclear ambitions. And we have to get all our pressure directed to achieving that end and that's the aim of Australian foreign policy at the present time and it's a very disciplined focus that we're bringing to the issue.
CORDEAUX:
Just on the subject of Iraq, the war to get rid of the regime and the weapons of mass destruction and also to implement a democracy. When the people of Iraq seem to be demonstrating in favour of an Islamic state similar to Iran, it's an irony isn't it? You go in there and you free people and you give them the right to choose what sort of a government or regime they're going to have and they chose the wrong one.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's too early to make any assessment of what they've chosen.
CORDEAUX:
But can we interfere? Do we have the right to interfere?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think we have the obligation to ensure that the new government that is established and the new system is what the majority of the Iraqi people want. That's our obligation. There are some people in Iraq who would want an Islamic republic, but there are a lot of people who wouldn't and taking Saddam Hussein out of the equation, Iraq has had a different history from that of Iran and others, it's had a more secular history and the likelihood is that although Islam will continue to be a heavy influence in that country, the likelihood is that it will avoid, if it's left properly to its own devices, going down the Iranian path. And in any event Iran itself is now more outward looking, more modern, less enthralled to what you might call a more extreme Islamic point of view than used to be the case.
CORDEAUX:
With regard to the war, it was relatively short, however tense. Looking back on those three weeks, how would you remember them? You were making a very considerable political gamble.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I will remember most of all the tremendous performance of the Australian forces. My greatest anxiety during the duration of the war, it remains now, is the possibility of Australian causalities. It's on all proportions it's far less now that the hostilities in essence have ceased but that was my greatest anxiety and I'm very grateful and I know Australians are very grateful that thus far we have been spared casualties. I think I'll also remember the look of joy on the faces of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people after they knew Saddam Hussein had gone. It was a difficult issue, it did involve a lot of risks...
CORDEAUX:
Did you have sleepless nights?
PRIME MINISTER:
I can't say I had totally sleepless nights, but I had interrupted sleep patterns at various stages, yes, that is only natural. But it was a very challenging issue and it was certainly a very risky exercise in a number of ways. But it was the right thing to have done. My sense around the world is that people have, even the critics, although they're still nibbling away at the margins they were impressed with the speed with which the military mission was accomplished and without in any way sounding indifferent to casualties the steps taken to minimise civilian casualties, they appear on first estimates, and I stress first estimates, to have been fewer civilian casualties on this occasion than in 1991 and there also appear to have been fewer deaths in battle on our side on this occasion than in 1991. I think what the war demonstrated militarily is the extraordinary superiority of American military capacity, the value of real time intelligence and the advances that have been made even in the 12 years that have passed since the first Gulf War in 1991.
CORDEAUX:
The underlying strength of the Australian economy is pretty amazing when you think we've got this SARS thing, we've got petrol, we've got having gone through a war, the only thing I suppose you could be concerned about maybe would be the inflation figure which was on the high side that came out yesterday. How is the Budget looking? Are you looking forward to a surplus? Are you, is it going to be a tough Budget?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we will have a surplus, we committed to that, the Budget is being put together against the backdrop of a still very strong economy but also an economy that's had some extra demands on it and you've listed some of them. We didn't anticipate some of the additional defence and security expenditure a year ago. It was pre Bali, it was pre Iraq. Although Iraq was a possibility, it was a lot less precise then then it was to become, and of course Bali wasn't in contemplation at all. Now, we did have a higher than expected inflation number yesterday but that doesn't really trouble me in the medium term because it's very directly due to the increase in oil prices that happened before the Iraqi war commenced, and those prices have since come back. And it's also due to the increasing fresh food prices flowing from the drought. Now both of those things are one-off and therefore short-term influences, and I would expect, as do most commentators, that the inflation rate in the next quarter will come back a tick, and be within the normal 2-3 comfort zone set by the Reserve Bank.
CORDEAUX:
So no real pressure on interest rates?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't believe so. I mean, in the end the Reserve Bank sets interest rates. But I can't see any case at present for an adjustment in interest rates.
CORDEAUX:
What about tax cuts? Anything you can tell us about that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look, you know, everybody likes them, but you've got to bear in mind... you know, you ask anybody who was in favour of tax cuts... but you've got to look at our other responsibilities.
CORDEAUX:
And where they're coming from.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's right. And we've got a lot, and we did have a big tax cut when the GST was introduced - something in the order of $11 billion of personal tax cuts. And people have got to also remember that those family tax benefits which go to millions of taxpayers, they are indexed. Not only do the value of those tax benefits go up each year, but the income bands which attach to your entitlements (inaudible), because they are income tested, they rise each year. So the real value of that part of the tax cut, it was a very big part, that real value is indexed for inflation each year.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, would you take a couple of calls?
PRIME MINISTER:
Sure.
CORDEAUX:
Hello Judy.
CALLER:
Good morning. I'm 'Mrs Average' and I have a 'Mr Average' and we're retired. Now I've been waiting 22 months for a semi-urgent operation. My husband is waiting for a hip replacement and he was told he'd have a three year wait, regardless of pain in the hip, so he joined private cover and he pays $136 a month, which is to us like another mortgage. Now my super is earning nil and I did what the Government asked and I put it in an allocated pension. A quarter of the capital has disappeared and when I asked could I take no interest to preserve my capital, I was told I wasn't allowed to. Have you any comment about super, or are you looking at this?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah well I do, I do have a comment about super. I am aware that a lot of the returns of the super funds are lower, and that is of concern to a lot of retired people.
CALLER:
It certainly is.
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm very aware of that, and the reason for it is mainly that many of the superannuation funds invested heavily overseas.
CALLER:
Exactly. So how long can we hold out?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well super funds are not... we don't tell superannuation funds where to put their money. They make independent judgements. Some people say the Government should tell them what to do with their investments. I don't think that would be very popular in the long-term and I don't think it would be very wise because Governments don't have a very good investment record.
CALLER:
No, I don't think they should.
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't either.
CALLER:
I wanted to preserve my capital because of my age, and I felt that because I wasn't allowed to preserve my capital...
PRIME MINISTER:
You wanted to forgo your income?
CALLER:
Yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I'd like to... can I take that part of your question on notice and perhaps off air if I could get your name and address and I could look at that aspect of it, and then there may be, and I just don't know offhand, I hope to tell you why you weren't able to do that. It may be because of some general rule or it may be a specific rule of the fund. I just don't know. I guess it was an allocated pension. That may be the explanation. But I would like to investigate that and come back to you on that point, because I don't have the immediate answer to it.
CORDEAUX:
Thank you Prime Minister. Judy, can you hang on there for a second. Hello Kathy.
CALLER:
Good morning Jeremy. Good morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hello.
CALLER:
Prime Minister, I'm very concerned about losing the battle to save our environment. To me, that's a criminal offence [inaudible] as bad as burning the flag. There are supposed to be about 3,000 ecosystems in Australia under threat and according to David Butcher from World Wide Fund for Animals, it's going to be difficult to almost impossible to reverse the situation. This comes at a time when we've got all these tourists at our front door, ecotourists, and they're looking to see wildlife as it is, not in parks, and birds, but you know birds flying around. We're shooting birds by the thousands. I mean, can't we have a big wake up here. Can't we appreciate what we've got? One hundred million birds die in Queensland, 190 million trees are felled every year. What are you going to do to save the environment?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think you state a view that a lot of people agree with. Some people would think you overstate it. Others would think that you definitely overstate it. I think your, if I may say with respect, I think half of what you're saying is right and I think half may be a little exaggeration because it implies that we're not doing anything about the environment, and that's not accurate and it's not fair. We have invested a lot of resources in the Natural Heritage Trust which does a lot of local things to help the environment. We're very proud of the advances we've made with Landcare. We've committed hundreds of millions of dollars, as a sort of a downpayment, on tackling the problem of salinity. We expect - notwithstanding the fact that we haven't ratified and won't for national interest reasons, the Kyoto Treaty in its present form - we expect to meet the emission target set by the Kyoto Protocol. And that is a result of measures that we have introduced. We have done a lot of things in relation to fuel emissions. So I could go through a long list of things that we have done. It would never completely satisfy people such as Mr Butcher, and I'm not criticising him. He comes from a particular, specific focus point of view and in the nature of a democratic society you need people like that that are always, as it were, stating the ambit claims of the environment, and I think that's a very good thing. But we have to balance environment with development, and we have to have regard to a whole mix of things. The environment is a mainstream issue and nobody debates now the need to have good policies on the environment. It's just a question of how far you go.
CORDEAUX:
Does it sometimes get to be a burden, Prime Minister, that we expect you to be able to fix everything?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's what I'm paid for.
CORDEAUX:
Comes with the territory.
PRIME MINISTER:
That's right.
CORDEAUX:
Just on the subject of fixing things, we've been running front page stories here about the closing of the mouth of the Murray.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
CORDEAUX:
We've spent $2 million trying to dredge it open, and quite clearly it remains a major problem, not just in South Australia but for the whole country.
PRIME MINISTER:
Water and the mouth of the Murray is intrinsically bound up in this. The allocation of water across this country is one of our big challenges and we need to get first and foremost a system of nationally recognised water rights.
CORDEAUX:
Can't you just take charge of the Murray? Tell the states what to do?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I can't because we don't control water rights. We don't. The situation in the Murray is the sum total of the usage of water over a large part of Australia. It's not just the Murray. And we don't, under our Constitution, we don't control those things. Water rights, property rights are allocated by the states. And we are working to get established across the country a system of national water rights. I think the people of South Australia have got a very legitimate concern. If we don't do something effective, in 20 years time or less something like two out of five people in Adelaide won't have decent drinking water in 20 years time. Now that's terrible, and something must be done and will be done. And it will require the cooperation of everybody to achieve it.
CORDEAUX:
Julia, you'd like to talk to the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
Yes, good morning. Good morning Prime Minister. Good morning Jeremy.
CORDEAUX:
Hi.
CALLER:
Mr Howard, sir, I would like to express my gratitude to you as Prime Minister of this country. I am of Italian background. I've been in Australia approximately 43 years. I have been back to my country and all over Europe many, many times, and this has brought me to the conclusion that we are definitely the lucky country. The problem with us Australians is that because perhaps we are not aware of how bad things are everywhere else in the world, we tend to complain, we tend to whinge about our health system. Well I can tell the Australian people here that we are so lucky with our health system. I have been overseas many, many times and the experiences I have had there, even in countries like Italy and France and other places that are not third-world countries, yet their hospital system, the politicians, everything over there is just so backward. And the other thing that impresses me here about Australia and about the communication that we have with people like yourself - you are the Prime Minister of this country, yet we are able to ring and speak with you as if you're just one of us, which I suppose in a way you are. But over there, it's like they are Gods. There is no way you can come near a politician, let alone the head of the country. And I just want to say thank you. Sure there are some things in Australia that still need to be fixed. I mean, no one is perfect. But I think we just need to see what everywhere else, what's going on everywhere else, to see how lucky we are, and stop whingeing - appreciate what we've got, get off our butts and do a few things ourselves rather than expecting the Government or everybody else to do it. [inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I certainly say I'm into all of that, except I don't claim credit for the great egalitarian tradition of Australia. And it's part of the Australian character that people interact with each other on a basis of equality, and I'm not the first Prime Minister that talked directly to people and I won't be the last. But I certainly believe very strongly in that tradition, and I practise it and I enjoy it and I hold to it very strongly. I think the point you made about the health system does bear emphasis. There are a lot of things wrong with our health system, but I wish everybody involved in politics at a state and a federal level, Liberal and Labor, would understand that with all its deficiencies, it is infinitely better than any other system you can identify anywhere else in the world. And if you're on an average income and you get a serious illness and you have a lot of financial commitments, it's better it occur in Australia than in England or America or Italy or Japan or Germany. And heavens, their systems are far inferior to ours. With all the imperfections ours have, and I acknowledge that and it can always be made better, but it is infinitely better for the average person and we're all in a sense average people because that's what we believe in in this country. It's a very strong system and it ought to be given greater support than it is.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, we've only got a couple of minutes before the news. With all the polling that politicians do these days, you would know only too well that the vast majority of people want you to stay at the helm. There is speculation that you have actually made up your mind what you're going to do. Is that true? Have you made up your mind?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Jeremy, I don't have anything to add on that. I haven't had anything to add on it for some time, and I find it easier just to say that.
CORDEAUX:
I know, but when you look at those polls...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, I read polls but I also know that what goes up inevitably comes down, and I may... I've been in politics quite a long time and at various stages in my career, I had some real shockers of polls.
CORDEAUX:
Haven't we all?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean, it's as well to remember that. And people who get mesmerised by polls are doomed to be the sufferer of some kind of reversal of expectation. I'm not mesmerised by polls. Let me put it this way - the next election is going to be a tough fight for the Coalition. It will be an attempt by the Coalition to win for a fourth time. I'm not commenting on matters on the other side, but I just want to make it very clear to Coalition supporters the next election is going to be very tough. We'll be seeking election for the fourth time in a row, and that will be tough.
CORDEAUX:
Well that's a good reason for you to stay in the top job.
PRIME MINISTER:
The message for all of my colleagues and supporters around the country is that... don't get complacent. Understand that there is still fundamentally pretty close to a 50/50 divide in this country on political allegiance when it comes to national politics, and you've got to work damn hard to stay in office.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, thank you very much for talking to us.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay Jeremy. Have a nice weekend.
CORDEAUX:
And you sir.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]