MCGRATH:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
MCGRATH:
President Bush called you after six this morning. Did he make that formal request you've been waiting for?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, he did two things. He explained to me what had happened in New York, how it had been decided given the continuing .. the apprehended veto of the French that the three co-sponsors of the resolution decided not to put it. He then asked whether Australia would be part of the coalition of the willing if it became necessary to finally use force against Iraq to enforce Iraq's obligations under previously passed Security Council resolutions. I indicated that Cabinet would meet again this morning and Cabinet is meeting again this morning at 8:30 to formally consider that request. We did of course talk in some detail about the whole issue last night. And when Cabinet has taken a decision that decision will be immediately communicated to the United States and of course to our military forces.
MCGRATH:
Well one question that's been asked of you for months ever since the issue began to develop is are you prepared to send our troops into war without a UN sanction. Can you now answer that question?
PRIME MINISTER:
We have UN sanction under existing resolutions....
MCGRATH:
Well under....under.....can I ask you under.....if there was to be a second resolution that hasn't happened, but can I ask you whether or not you're prepared currently today to send Australian troops into war?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if the Cabinet decides, they will be deciding to send them in under the legal authority that is already there. There is legal authority. That is the view of the lawyers who are advising us, I notice it's the view of a range of lawyers who have written an article in the Australian newspaper this morning, it's apparently the legal view given to the British government, and it's apparently the legal view given to the United States government. We sought the 18th resolution not to bolster our legal position, rather to maximise the international pressure on Iraq. It was always my view that if everybody says the same thing to Iraq that might just bring about a change of political heart in Baghdad. Now that hasn't happened but as far as the legality is concerned military action to enforce existing resolutions has adequate legal authority and is entirely consistent with international law according to the advice we have received.
MCGRATH:
So Australia could be at war by week's end if Saddam does not meet this ultimatum that US President George W Bush will deliver today.
PRIME MINISTER:
As to actually when military operations start once you've made a decision to commit to a coalition, our forces if they are committed, will be under a separate Australian national command. They will fight according to Australian rules of engagement, they will operate in accordance with Australian targeting policies, and in a number of significant respects Australian targeting policies are tighter and more in line with certain conventions than those of the United States. But as to what happens and when after you've made a commitment I'm not going to speculate about that. That is obviously an operational matter and I think it's important that we separate comment of a political kind from me and my colleagues and comments of an operational kind which I will be asking and expecting the military to deal with.
MCGRATH:
But you'll make a formal decision this morning, it will then go to the Joint Party room. Will there be a parliamentary debate, will Parliament get a chance to vote on this and will the vote have any importance or will the decision already be made at 8:30 this morning?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well under our system of government the body that has the power to take the decision is the Cabinet and I'm following the procedure that Mr Hawke followed in 1991 and which is part of our Constitution. But I've said all along that as soon as practicable I'll take the matter to Parliament. I'm not in any way trying to avoid a Parliamentary debate. We've already had two lengthy parliamentary debates on this issue and both houses of Parliament will have an opportunity of debating this issue for as long as they choose.
MCGRATH:
You've spoken about your view that it is a legally backed military action....
PRIME MINISTER:
Sorry, I'm not superimposing my personal view. It's the legal advice we have from the relevant people in the government who are experts on these issues. I happen to agree with it but I'm not saying that I'm superimposing my own personal legal view.
MCGRATH:
There is however alternative legal opinion from eminent international and Australian international lawyers like Hilary Charlesworth who disagrees with you. But if we can put that to one side at the moment. The US did not put the vote today because they could not even get a majority of the UN Security Council to agree, it wasn't just the issue of a French veto, there wasn't even a majority on the UN Security Council. Given that how do you feel about going into a military action with a coalition of just three countries - Britain, the US and Australia, and Australia a very small nation?
PRIME MINISTER:
It was the threat, Catherine, of the French veto that worked to persuade the six independent countries from expressing a view. When you're a small country on the Security Council and you're involved in a controversial issue the last thing you want to do is put your hand up on either side, and if you know in advance that the resolution is going to be vetoed you're in effect let off the hook. So in that sense the French veto was precisely the thing that killed any prospect of this resolution getting up.
MCGRATH:
Can we look at these three countries because many Australians as they wake up this morning and listen to this interview understand that George W Bush will within hours indicate to Iraq that without Saddam fleeing there will be war. Australia is indicating that it will be there as well, they perhaps haven't realised until now that no other countries are joining. If they realise that there's only three nations in it. How do you feel about your position as Prime Minister trying to sell that and to convince Australians that it is the right thing to do.
PRIME MINISTER:
It's not right to say that there are no other countries in it. It is true that as far as formal troop commitments are concerned - it'll be American, British and depending on the decision in a little while, Australian....
MCGRATH:
But [inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
Just let me finish. Many countries that are providing basing facilities are making in terms of their place in the Arab world just as big as commitment and taking just as big a risk, an even greater risk doing that. There will I understand be other commitments from some European countries. When you add up the number of countries that have provided basing facilities and overfly rights and the like, it comes up to a number of somewhere in the order of 20. Now, three is the number in relation to the actual forces, but some of those Middle Eastern countries, given the pressure that is put upon them, the threats that are made to them, the promises of intimidation and retaliation, the commitment they make, particularly regarding basing, is a very major commitment and to just ignore that and pretend that it's just three countries is wrong.
MCGRATH:
Yet the difference between now and the previous Gulf War when there were at least 33 countries, this time even Spain which was a co-sponsor of this UN Security Council resolution isn't committing troops, there will be three countries invading Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Catherine, in the end on something like this it's the merits of the argument that matters. Now, we have made a judgement, we have made an assessment and that assessment is that it is in Australia's interest to be part of this coalition and if the Cabinet decides in a little while to formally involve our forces, they'll be involved in something which is not only legal but they'll be involved in something that will be dealing with the modern threat and the modern threat is the danger of chemical and biological weapons getting into the hands of terrorists and all western nations are potential targets for terrorism and that fundamentally, is the reason why I believe it's important that Australia be involved in this issue.
MCGRATH:
Prime Minister, can you just reiterate what George W. Bush said to you and how he indicated the next 12-24 hours will play out?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, he indicated to me after... asking for our participation; he said that he would be making a speech around midday today Australian time in which he would recapitulate what had occurred in New York; he would go over the efforts of his country and others to secure a unanimous new resolution putting more political pressure on Iraq; he then said in effect that the speech would become an ultimatum speech. Now, beyond that I don't think I can comment. There are certain other things he mentioned to me which in fairness to the discussion I can't comment about them. That was the broad thrust of the discussion. He's obviously very grateful for the understanding and the support that Australia has given; he understands very much the weight of the responsibility of this decision on his shoulders and on the shoulders of the British Prime Minister and also myself.
MCGRATH:
Prime Minister, just one last question. Within days Australia could be at war. Australia as a nation has never invaded another country that hasn't previously been aggressive towards us - I'm thinking of the Second World War, the First World War. If this happens, now are you comfortable with that - Australia would be invading Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm very comfortable if we are to take action to enforce obligations on another country, clearly layed out in a United Nations Security Council resolution. When the matter comes before the Parliament, we'll be asking the Parliament to support a decision which has been taken to enforce against Iraq obligations imposed on Iraq, not unilaterally by Australia...
MCGRATH:
The Parliament won't decide, will it? Australia...
PRIME MINISTER:
Catherine, don't, please, you asked me a question. We'll be asking the Parliament to vote upon a resolution requiring Iraq to comply with an obligation put upon it, not unilaterally by Australia or America but put upon it by the world community, including the 15 members of the Security Council in resolution 1441. Now, that will be the basis, not only on which Parliament is asked to vote but that will be the basis on which we decide, if we do, a little later this morning to commit Australian forces. Now, I want that clearly understood. We will be committing Australian forces to an act of enforcement of obligations in accordance with previously established United Nations' resolutions. I think it's very important that that legal basis be understood.
MCGRATH:
Prime Minister, thanks for speaking to AM.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]