MARTIN:
Mr Howard thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good evening Ray.
MARTIN:
Is it, do you expect to get much sleep tonight?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not a great deal, this is a very difficult issue and it weighs very heavily on me, I believe the course of action the Government has taken is right and in the long term interests of Australia. But anything involving military conflict, anything involving Australian men and women being involved in military conflict worries me and it's only natural that you think a great deal about it. There's no more burdensome, no more serious, no more grave decision a Prime Minister is involved in.
MARTIN:
Yes I agree with that. Why weren't you invited to the summit in the Azores?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well two reasons, we're not a member of the Security Council. And in any event I couldn't have gone there and got back for Parliament tomorrow.
MARTIN:
Alright. Is it a good thing then PM do you think when a superpower issues an ultimatum to the rest of the world like this?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think when the superpower has patiently for four months tried to persuade the Security Council which represents the rest of the world to deliver on a resolution they all agreed unanimously to support four months ago, it's very understandable. The Americans have been very patient and unfortunately over the past few days it's become apparent that one of the members of the Security Council, the French are determined to use their historic veto to prevent anything resembling the resolution the American and the British and the Spanish put forward and that really is the reason the thing's bogged down in the United Nations.
MARTIN:
But why are we and the Americans and the Brits preparing to invade Iraq when 170, 180, 190 other United Nations countries disagree? What do we know that they don't know?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we certainly, we all know that Iraq and chemical and biological weapons, we all know that if Iraq is allowed to keep them other countries will do likewise.
MARTIN:
But they're not ...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well can I, but you're asking me why, why we're doing it, let me speak for Australia, let me explain why I believe we should be doing it. Iraq has these weapons, if Iraq is allowed to keep them other country think they can do same, the more countries that have them the more likely it is that they'll get into the hands of terrorists and if that happens that is a threat to every Western country, including Australia. Now that is why I feel strongly about this. Most, there are many countries that support the American position...
MARTIN:
But they're not going to war, they're not prepared to go to war...
PRIME MINISTER:
No they're not, I mean for example there are many countries that do, but the reality is that we have a long history of not being spectators but of being participants. And we're also a country that has a close alliance with the United States and we're a country that under a previous government was involved in action to expel Iraq from Kuwait and subsequently we've been involved in action to try and enforce Security Council resolutions. They're the reasons why we have been involved.
MARTIN:
We also have (inaudible) the Pentagon has warned for weeks now that when war begins 3,000 American bombs will rain down on Iraq and on Baghdad. Mr Howard, that's 3,000 Balis, we've had the experience of Bali, we know how many innocent lives were lost in Bali. Do you accept that possible civilian casualty list?
PRIME MINISTER:
Ray, if there is military conflict there will be casualties, there will be civilian causalities. I accept that, I don't like but can I put to you and to your viewers that if you put all of the human humanitarian considerations into the balance, if Saddam Hussein is left there, there will be greater suffering for the Iraqi people...
MARTIN:
You have said this before but you could say that about a dozen, if not 20 countries around the world that are fairly barbaric.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think...yeah but I think the record, according to United Nations reports, the record of this regime is by many degrees worse than many of those others. I mean after all he has invaded many of his neighbouring countries. It's been calculated that more than a million people have died as a result of the aggressive action that he's taken. Now you're not talking there about a regime with ordinary barbarity, you are talking about a regime that has a greater level of barbarity than most.
MARTIN:
But PM you know that most of that so called barbarism was done over 12 years ago before these sanctions came in. You also know that so much of that meeting you talk about was with the backing of the United States in a war against Iran. There was a time there when Saddam was our friend. Isn't that hypocritical?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Ray, the Soviet Union was our ally during World War II. It didn't mean that a period of time later the Soviet Union ceased to be our ally and in fact was seen to be the greatest threat to the west. I mean....
MARTIN:
But [inaudible] by the US....there was a centre for disease control in Atlanta that gave Saddam the anthrax and botulism. We gave him those weapons of mass destruction.
PRIME MINISTER:
But Ray we are talking about a current situation. We are talking about whether you believe that it's a good thing for the world to leave Iraq with chemical and biological weapons....
MARTIN:
Which we gave him.
PRIME MINISTER:
.....believe it is acceptable....
MARTIN:
Which we gave him.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes but Ray you've got to deal with the present situation. You can argue about who gave him, there's a lot of argument about that. It's not quite as clear cut as you suggest.
MARTIN:
But isn't it hypocritical, isn't it hypocritical to go to war now [inaudible]?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't think it is hypocritical to take military action if you believe that if you don't you will allow a situation that could threaten you. I mean in the end I rest my case on a very strong belief that if Iraq keeps these weapons others will do likewise. The more that have them the greater risk there is that they will fall into the hands of terrorists and we know that terrorists will use them irrespective of the consequences to civilian populations.
MARTIN:
But I come back to the question PM....
PRIME MINISTER:
My present argument....
MARTIN:
There are 190 countries plus in the United Nations who don't agree. They agree that he's got the weapons, they agree we should get rid of it, but they're not prepared to go to war as we are. What do we know that they don't know?
PRIME MINISTER:
But Ray if you believe, along with the United States which is the greatest military power in the world, and along with the United Kingdom, if you believe what I've just said and the question of whether other countries are willing to contribute or not doesn't alter the reality of what I've said. I mean the fact that you might see something about to happen that hurts you, the fact that other people aren't prepared to do anything to stop it happening doesn't mean to say you shouldn't stop it happening.
MARTIN:
But that makes us right and them wrong PM?
PRIME MINISTER:
No it makes us sensible and prudent and more careful. Other countries, Ray, in the end can answer for themselves. I mean I'm trying to answer for Australia and I'll be judged by the Australian people according to the decisions I take and I accept that. But the reason that I believe we have to do what we're doing is that I don't think it's an acceptable risk for the world to allow a country like Iraq to continue to thumb its nose at the world, keep these chemical and biological weapons. Others will seek to do likewise.
MARTIN:
Is there something bizarre, Dr Strangelove about this, you know, we're going to go to kill, we have to kill Iraqi people to give them human rights, is there something Dr Strangelovish about that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Ray, the reality is that we are taking the action we're taking because of the risk that I've outlined. When you're talking about the suffering issue, the human rights issue, I have no doubt at all in my mind, and many would agree with me, that the Iraqi people will suffer less if Saddam Hussein is removed.
MARTIN:
And many people will disagree with you of course. In fact you're prepared to go to war if need be over the next 24 hours without the backing of the Australian people, without the Australian Parliament, without the United Nations.
PRIME MINISTER:
Ray, there's plenty of legal authority in existing United Nations resolutions for military action to be taken against Iraq.
MARTIN:
[inaudible] plenty of it says the other PM, there's plenty that says in fact we are breaking international law.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'll be putting my case when I address the Parliament and I'm quite sure that what I put to the Parliament will provide an adequate legal basis for what we're going to do. But the reason we're taking this action is, to go back to what I said earlier, is that if you leave Iraq with chemical and biological weapons others will copy them and that will multiply the danger of them falling into the hands of terrorists and that's the reason.
MARTIN:
Alright. We thank you, thank you so much for your time and we wish you well in the decisions that have to be made in the next 24 hours. Thank you for that PM.
[ends]