PRICE:
The Prime Minister joins us from our Canberra studio. Good morning, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Steve.
PRICE:
20 years ago that Bob Hawke got elected, can you remember what you felt that day?
PRIME MINISTER:
I felt disappointment at the defeat of the Coalition Government. I remember it very clearly, it was a hot day in March, 1983.
PRICE:
I talked to him this morning, he hasn't changed much. He still he thinks he knows the most about world, more than anyone else.
PRIME MINISTER:
I'll make no comment on that. I'll make no comment at all, except to observe this - I've always said that there were several positive things that the Hawke Government did. One of them was the floating of the dollar, the other was tariff reform and I've never been reluctant to acknowledge that. The other point needs to be made that when we were in opposition and the Labor Party puts up a good idea for reform proposal, we support them. All of their major economic reforms like financial deregulation and tariff reform, they enjoyed the support of the opposition. By contrast, every single major reform that my Government has undertaken as being opposed in an opportunistic way by the current opposition. So, there is a difference. It does make a difference if you have a less negative, a more constructive and a less opportunistic opposition. And I suppose, I'm entitled to say how might that former Government have faired in relation to things like tariff reform, in particular where if we had have been opportunistic we could have got some kind of fear campaign. But it's 20 years ago, he's entitled to say whatever he likes about his contribution to Australia. He was a better Labor Prime Minister than either his predecessor Whitlam, or his successor Keating.
PRICE:
He prided himself on knowing the mood of the Australian public, as you do. Now, are you reading the mood differently this week on Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I think the Australian public is anguished over Iraq, as I am, as I'm sure you are. Nobody wants a military conflict, but we cannot walk away from the threat that the continuation of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Iraq constitutes. Not only do the countries of the region, the example other countries would take from the world's failure to deal with Iraq and the possibility that those weapons could one day get into the hands of international terrorists. And that is the issue and that is why I feel very strongly that Iraq must be disarmed. I don't believe they're seriously cooperating with the world. They always give a little bit right at the end and the world will be very foolish if it sees what Iraq has conceded in relation to the Al-Samoud missiles and in relation to a few other things as genuine cooperation with the United Nations. It's not, none of that cooperation, little though it is, would be occurring; the inspectors wouldn't even be there were it not for the American military build-up. Yet everybody, not everybody but many people, are criticising the American and also the Australian and British deployment. It's that deployment which has led, particularly the American one, which has led to the inspectors being back in Iraq and it's that kind of pressure which has produced the morsels of cooperation that we've had. Look, it is a difficult issue and I understand why people will disagree with me on this. I want them to understand that I respect their views, but I believe that it is in Australia's interests that we do everything we can to secure the disarmament of Iraq, and it's a very big responsibility now on the shoulders of the Security Council.
PRICE:
Your office last night denied that Australian troops were already on the ground in Iraq.
PRIME MINISTER:
That denial is repeated by me, they are not. I can assure the Australian public of that. I know that very directly from the discussions I've had with our military. The understanding is that those forces are there ready to take part in military action if they receive the authorisation of the Australian Government.
PRICE:
So, what will that process be, Prime Minister? How will the Australian people find out?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well what will happen is this: we will want to see the current processes in the United Nations played out. In other words, we'll need to know the fate of the resolution presented by the British and the Spanish and the Americans.
PRICE:
The Americans have set a new deadline today for Saturday week.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I've heard reports about that. I'll want to get a more detailed briefing before I accept the report, but there's... we're certainly coming to the end of the process and there has to be a resolution on the resolution pretty soon, and maybe the end of next week is a possible date, but I can't be certain of that.
PRICE:
So, how will you then tell your fellow Australians that you're sending people to war?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, what will then happen is that we will, as a Cabinet, discuss the matter and depending on what is the outcome, we'll take a decision, the Cabinet takes this decision. And I will, of course, talk to my colleagues in the joint parties and advise them at a meeting, if it has to be specially convened so be it. But Parliament may in fact be sitting when all of this occurs, so there'll be no need to bring people back to Canberra. But the first thing that will happen is that we'll have a Cabinet meeting and we'll take a decision and what that decision will be will depend on the outworking of the UN processes and I'm not going to speculate at this stage on what it is. We'll then talk to our parties and then we will put a proposition to the Parliament, but the decision as to whether we commit or don't commit is a decision taken by the Cabinet.
PRICE:
Personally, how heavy does that now weigh on your mind?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, very heavily. And no issue has been more difficult in the time I've been in office because I'm conscious that there is a lot of debate and there are a variety of views in the Australian community on this issue. In relation to some other matters, the opinion has not been so sharply divided. That makes it all the more difficult, but it doesn't alter the fact that a decision has to be taken. The easy thing for me to do now would be for me to run away from taking a difficult decision, I don't intend to do that. I think this issue has to be dealt with, just precisely how we decide to deal with it is something I can't say until we know the final outworking. But we have to operate on the basis that if the world blinks at Iraq and walks away from it, not only will Iraq hang on to her weapons, other countries will seek to do the same, and ultimately some of those weapons will get into the hands of international terrorists. Now, that is the ultimate nightmare as far as I'm concerned and that is the thing that troubles me most of all and it is the thing, in my respectful view, that should trouble the people of Australia most of all.
PRICE:
I know it's tough when these things get personalised. I spoke to an Australian women from Sydney who is in Baghdad, she was there this morning, Donna Mulhearn, 34 year old woman from Sydney. I asked her if she'd have a message for you this morning. If you don't mind, I'll just play this to you. It's very short.
MULHEARN:
I'd like to say, Mr Howard please, please, please do what you can to stop a military attack on Iraq. These people do not deserve to be attacked. These are now people with names and faces. These are children I've played with. These are men and women who I have shared my conversations with and eaten meals with and taken me into their homes. They are real people. They just want to get on with their lives. They just want the same as you and I, to raise their families. They're not asking for anything more but to be left alone to get on with their lives. I just ask you, please, do whatever you can to stop this war. It's not our business. Do what you can to maintain the peace. Be a peacemaker. [inaudible], that's what I would ask him. I would plead with him to do what he can to help us.
PRICE:
She has said she'll stay there.
PRIME MINISTER:
Can I ask a question and then I'll make a comment. What are the circumstances in which that lady has gone to Iraq?
PRICE:
She's a 34 year old Sydney woman. She has been travelling around Europe. She has decided that she wants to go there and put herself in the line of fire. She says she will stay there.
PRIME MINISTER:
She's not there... she's gone there as a deliberate...
PRICE:
Correct.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, okay, I understand that.
PRICE:
Two weeks ago.
PRIME MINISTER:
So, she wants to make herself a human shield.
PRICE:
Correct.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't think that is good behaviour. I understand the strength of her feelings. She talks about the ordinary people of Iraq, but I worry about the ordinary people of Iraq. I wonder if she's thought about the million and a half ordinary people who have been killed by this regime over probably a 20-year period. I wonder if she's thought about the ordinary children of Iraq whose parents only crime was to be political opponents of Saddam Hussein, and are now detained in the most appalling conditions in Iraqi gaols. I wonder if she's thought of the ordinary people of neighbouring Iran who died in the Iraq-Iranian war. I wonder if she's thought of the ordinary people of Kurdistan and of the Marshlands who are the victims of poison gas and the most appalling human rights abuses by the Iraqi regime. You see, when you put human suffering into the balance on this issue, quite apart from the challenge of disarming Iraq, there is a very powerful case that human suffering will be greater if Saddam Hussein is left in power. There's a very, very powerful case. I wonder if she's read a very evocative piece in the Melbourne Age earlier this week from a British journalist who went there, to northern Iraq, as a sceptic, and whose views are anything but my views I could tell on most issues, who in a very emotional piece said - whatever might be the arguments about other aspects, in the name of human rights, the regime should be removed. Now, that's my answer to that lady. My principal argument is the disarmament of Iraq. It's not regime change. And I have to say in honesty that if there was a way of miraculously Iraq being totally and for sure disarmed, then I wouldn't be arguing for force to be used. But let's not be under any false illusions. Putting human rights and human suffering into the balance, the removal of Saddam Hussein will be much better and result in less suffering and fewer atrocities and less torture, and fewer arbitrary arrests and executions, than would be the case if he continued.
PRICE:
I'll just briefly ask you, and I know it's always tough when you personalise those things, can I briefly ask you about this man Robert Thomas, the Australian man in Saudi-Arabia who has been sentenced to jail and is publicly flogged every fortnight. Are we doing anything to try and get him out of there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think that is quite appalling. On the face of it, the man's guilt is by association because of the alleged behaviour of his wife. I heard about this this morning and I've initiated some enquiries as to what level of protest has been made. I have to say, on the face of it, and I don't know all the circumstances, but it seems appallingly inhumane to me and I know that we have to accept that if we go to another country, we are subject to the laws of that country, but it does seem to me to be a cruelly disproportionate punishment, according to the values and the understandings of Australians, and I'm sure many other people. And I will talk to the Foreign Minister. I understand a view has been put and it may well have been put very, very strongly. I'm not being critical of the Department. I just don't know at this stage, except can I say to your listeners and to this man's family, I share their anger and pain. On something like this, it does seem cruelly disproportionate.
PRICE:
Appreciate your time Prime Minister. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]