CARLTON:
The Prime Minister joins me this afternoon. Good afternoon.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good afternoon Mike.
CARLTON:
That is the big question - do you believe President Bush is now bent on war with Saddam Hussein, with or without the United Nations?
PRIME MINISTER:
He's very committed to getting Iraq to disarm. I am too because I think it's in Australia's interests not to have countries like Iraq possessing chemical, biological and in time nuclear weapons. I really am genuinely concerned about living in a world where countries like Iraq can have those weapons. In our own region, we have the problem of North Korea and if the world walks away or blinks with Iraq, then our chances of controlling North Korea are greatly reduced.
CARLTON:
Alright. But doesn't the President want more than that? He seems to make it very plain he wants to crush Saddam Hussein. He wants that they call regime change.
PRIME MINISTER:
He wants regime change. This is an area where our policy is different from America.
CARLTON:
Is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we don't... I mean I'd be delighted if Saddam Hussein disappeared. So would you. So would all your listeners. I mean he's... but it's not a central objective. The central objective we have is the disarmament. Now I know in practice that if there is a military operation against Iraq with the objective of getting rid of those weapons, then it's hard to concede that that won't have the practical consequence also of removing Saddam Hussein.
CARLTON:
Surely it's stronger than that though? Bush wants him out.
PRIME MINISTER:
You're asking me what our position is. I mean our goal is to be part of an international operation through the United Nations. That is our overwhelming preference. And I'll come to the question of what happens if the Security Council doesn't do this, that or the other. That's a fair question. We want an international operation to make certain that these weapons are taken away from Iraq. Now we've had a strong Security Council resolution, we've had 12 years of obfuscation and deceit, and we are reaching a point where, if the Security Council doesn't deliver on its own resolution, then the Security Council are going to lose a great deal of credibility because in the end you can't keep on saying - do what I say, and when nobody takes any notice of you, just keep on saying that and then do nothing.
CARLTON:
Well that's what we do with Israel.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I thought you would say that.
CARLTON:
Well there is an argument.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think there are differences. I don't think Israel... to start with, Israel is a democracy - the only democracy in the Middle East. People seem to forget that. I mean even at the height of all the trouble between the Palestinians and the Israelis, you still have the Israeli legal system intervening to restrain the behaviour of the Israeli Government. You have the Israeli Prime Minister yanked off the air in the middle of an advertisement. I mean, you know, this is mildly relevant but we are dealing with freedom and democracy.
CARLTON:
But it goes to the conduct of the Security Council, doesn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. Well I think the other difference is that from its very inception, Israel has been in a state of encirclement and I think you can... where as the argument of self defence which you can invoke in relation to the totality of Israeli behaviour can't be invoked in relation to Iraq. I mean you can't say of Israel that she has been the aggressor of so many of her neighbours, that you can say of Iraq because the...
CARLTON:
[inaudible] Palestinians..
PRIME MINISTER:
As soon as Israel was established in 1948 basically the rest of the Arab countries declared war and said that Israel shouldn't be able to exist. So I mean from the very beginning the right of Israel to exist was denied by her Arab neighbours. Now that is a very significant difference. Having said that, I do agree with you very much that we've got to do better about the Israeli-Palestinian problem. I think the opportunity that Ehud Barak offered a couple of years ago, it's tragic that Arafat didn't pick that up. I would hope that arising out of his victory in the Israeli election such as it is, that Sharon will accept the need to be a lot more adventurous and proactive about trying to get some kind of accommodation with the Palestinians. I think the decision of the Israeli Government to deny the Palestinians attendance at that London conference about the future there... I mean look, I'm not a... I am a strong supporter of Israel but I'm not an uncritical observer. But lest it be said so we don't lose perspective - it is the one truly functioning democracy in the Middle East and...
CARLTON:
I'm not arguing with that.
PRIME MINISTER:
No. But it ought to matter to a country like Australia.
CARLTON:
Yeah. I'm asking about the conduct of the Security Council. And if there is a veto - France or somebody drops in the veto and says no, no military attack on Iraq. Do you believe George Bush will go in anyway?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh look, I think the Americans are determined to get rid of these weapons.
CARLTON:
And they're determined to get rid of Saddam.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they can speak for themselves, but their policy is also regime change. But the question of what the Security Council does is obviously of interest to all of us. I hope the Security Council recognises that with the Blix report and after it hears from Colin Powell on the 5th of February, that its responsibility is to do everything it can to enforce its authority. And if there is a hope for peace, and you know I'm still optimistic enough to hope as we all do that we can avoid military conflict, the best way of delivering that is surely for everybody on the Security Council to tell Iraq that the game is up.
CARLTON:
Alright. A lot of very influential Americans are concerned that this won't happen and that... I mean people like Senator Edward Kennedy, I was reading his speech this morning. He is concerned that President Bush has not built an international coalition and that America will take unilateral and possibly illegal action, illegal under the UN charter, under the international law, to get rid of Saddam.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't believe that America will act illegally. We certainly won't. I'll need to be satisfied that anything we do is legal. One of the...
CARLTON:
If we declare war on Iraq, without the approval of the UN Security Council, it's illegal.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well a lot of people argue that there is already authority there. I mean I'm not saying that that's the basis of what I'm putting to you now, but if you go back over the various resolutions, references to all necessary means and so forth, it is not a clear cut thing. I mean one of the things I think we have to accept Mike is the very strong possibility that you won't have a black and white situation from the Security Council.
CARLTON:
From the UN.
PRIME MINISTER:
No you won't. Take Kosovo for example. The NATO action in Kosovo was not endorsed by the United Nations Security Council. The reason it wasn't was that the NATO countries apprehended that the Russians would veto it because they were close to the Serbians. And what you in effect had in Kosovo, you had an acquiescence by the Security Council in that action. You didn't have an explicit endorsement. And it is very likely that coming out of the Security Council deliberations, that's very likely putting it too strong, it is at least very possible...
CARLTON:
Distinct possibility.
PRIME MINISTER:
Distinct possibility that you could have that you could have that kind of situation in which event this country would have to make a judgement. And people say to me why don't you say right now exactly what you are going to do at the end of the Security Council process. Well the reason I can't totally answer that is that I don't know the end, the precise end game coming out of the Security Council. Clearly we have put our hand up on the side of the Americans thus far. There's no doubt about that, I'm not denying that.
CARLTON:
But how far have we gone then? Have you told....?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I haven't given...I haven't said....I haven't made commitments on behalf of this country privately that I have not disclosed publicly.
CARLTON:
Well have you told the President, President Bush, George if you're in we're in?
PRIME MINISTER:
I have made no private commitments of that kind. What I have said is that we've been willing to deploy which we have, and we and the British are the only two that have done that, but I have said to him in all of the discussions that I've had that we'll have to make a final analysis, a final decision rather, about the commitment of military forces when we know the precise international situation.
CARLTON:
Alright.
PRIME MINISTER:
I also said to him from as far back as the 9th of September last year that we would hope that the matter can proceed under the umbrella of the United Nations.
CARLTON:
Alright. Now with the Opposition Leader Simon Crean is accusing you of deceit. If you don't mind I'll just play you a short....
PRIME MINISTER:
Do I need the headphones?
CARLTON:
No you don't. Just a short comment from what Simon Crean has had to say today.
CREAN:
I'm sick of the deceit of the Prime Minister. He's treating the public like mugs. He says he wants peace but he's already committed our troops to war. He says that he's made no commitment to the United States about the involvement of our troops but I don't believe him.
CARLTON:
Well he's accusing you of lying.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm not going to respond to that. I think the Australian public on something as serious as this wants something better from the Opposition Leader than an accusation.
CARLTON:
Well he's accusing you of deceit that you've done a deal....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have not done any private deals, I have not done any private deals. But look if Mr Crean could give us an alternative way of handling this, if Mr Crean could give us an argument that would be fine. I haven't descended into personal abuse in relation to Mr Crean and I don't think on something as serious as this the Australian public wants that kind of language. Anyway that's for him to decide.
CARLTON:
Alright. Is it conceivable though....we've got people on the ground there already [inaudible], Navy units, we may well....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we already have two ships in the multinational....
CARLTON:
[inaudible] blockade.
PRIME MINISTER:
It's a blockade and the Kanimbla will join it and we have indicated that the extent of our contribution if we are involved will be the SAS and they on this occasion have support commandos and helicopters....
CARLTON:
And maybe FA-18s....
PRIME MINISTER:
And up to a squadron of FA-18s.
CARLTON:
Is it conceivable then that if George Bush, our closest and dearest ally, goes in, the Americans go in that we could say look I'm terribly sorry we're not going in?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Mike I can only repeat what I've said that before we make a final decision about commitment we have to know the United Nations end game. And I mean that is the reality of it. I mean obviously if it's a grave result from the Security Council we have to make a judgement and there'll probably be a lot of debate. Presumably if the United Nations Security Council authorises the use of force and Iraq does not respond to that by fessing up then presumably based on what has been said by Mr Crean and others that we would have bipartisan support for Australian involvement. You could have a situation where you don't get that kind of explicit endorsement but you get something like a Kosovo outcome.
CARLTON:
It's very grey....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I know but I mean life's a bit like that, and you know I wish it were otherwise. I wish I weren't....can I tell you I don't like this one bit. I don't enjoy this. It's a very difficult issue.
CARLTON:
Does it scare you....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course it worries me a lot.
CARLTON:
Scare you? I mean....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well all of that, but I mean I'll describe it in the way I choose. But it is a very heavy issue and a very heavy decision and I understand people want information, I understand people want to hear from me why I think we should. I accept all of that.
CARLTON:
Shouldn't you then stand up and say to the Australian people as your Prime Minister I have to say there is now every danger that we will be at war?
PRIME MINISTER:
Mike, I have to talk to the Australian people in the language that I can best muster. I mean as I say....look it's not a very...
CARLTON:
[inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean we're playing a bit of a word game as to what I should say. I mean I have been....
CARLTON:
No it's not a word game. It's a very serious....
PRIME MINISTER:
No, word game in the sense of, you know, you're suggesting to express it in one way, I'm choosing to express it in another way. I mean that's what I mean by a word game. I don't regard the issue as a word game. I regard it as a very important issue. But the main reason why Australia has a concern about this issue and the reason why we have done what we have done is my concern about the spread of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons to states like Iraq. I think that is a danger to the world particularly when you bear in mind the ultimate nightmare that they might be given to terrorist organisations. And can I go back to North Korea? If we buckle in relation to Iraq, if the Security Council doesn't deliver on its resolution then how are we going to cajole North Korea?
CARLTON:
Alright. Can I ask you that same question in a slightly different way? Is there now every chance that we will be at war?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we have put ourselves in a position to join a military operation if that becomes necessary. We've put ourselves in a position and we're in a position to do that....
CARLTON:
So there is....
PRIME MINISTER:
No no....
CARLTON:
It's a fair question.
PRIME MINISTER:
I know it's fair but it's also fair that I be given, you know, I'm not trying to be argumentative but because it's an important issue I just want the opportunity to put it in a way that I think best reflects my thinking on it. Look I think the possibility of military conflict is very high. I hope it can be avoided. I hope that in the final analysis Iraq understands the consequences. That is most likely to be the case, remote though the possibility is, if you get a unanimous resolution out of the Security Council. Now clearly we have indicated to the world by the deployment of those forces that we are in the appropriate circumstances willing to be part of that operation. Now the question of whether we will finally be part of it is one we can't take at the present time until we know the end game out of the United Nations, and also because until we know whether or not it becomes necessary. Now I don't think that's being deceitful, I don't think that's holding anything back. I think it's just a statement of the obvious. Now of course we're putting ourselves in a position....
CARLTON:
We're in harms way.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think our forces are less in harms way if they are there and getting ready and acclimatised so that if we do decide they should be committed they can be more easily part of the operation.
CARLTON:
Alright, grim days aren't they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look it is not an easy issue and anybody who imagines there is any desire on the part of me or the part of the Government to be involved in military conflict, I hate war, I think it's abominable, it's filthy, it's not something that I want this country to be part it, it can be avoided but I do worry about a world in which countries like Iraq can have these sorts of weapons and if you don't do something about her possession of them then not only does that create a problem in its own right because of what she's done in the past but you will see them spread and I think that is a great concern to the world. The old worry was that big armies of big nations would roll over borders, the new sort of horror is the spread of these weapons. Plus the potential for them to fall into the hands of (inaudible). Now I think we all agree on that, I don't find the Labor Party disagreeing with that. I mean Simon Crean said the other day that he thought Iraq had been in material breach in the Security Council's resolution. Well if it has been then surely he agrees something ought to be done about.
CARLTON:
Prime Minister, thanks very much.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]