MURRAY:
Good morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Paul.
MURRAY:
Prime Minister, George W. Bush in his State of the Union address yesterday appeared to set out a deadline for a war against Iraq. It involves the Secretary of State addressing the UN Security Council next Wednesday and then the Security Council making a decision on Iraq the week after. When will you decide whether we join the Americans at war?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think what has to happen is that the Security Council has to address this issue and resolve it. The most important thing is that the Security Council meets its responsibilities. It passed a very strong resolution. That resolution has been defied and the Security Council, if it is to retain its credibility, must ensure that that resolution is fully complied with by Iraq. Now next week's meeting at which Mr Powell will present some additional material, that's very important. I don't think at this stage you can be talking strictly speaking of deadlines, but quite plainly as a result of the Blix report which found that Iraq had been just thumbing its nose at the Security Council, quite plainly we're getting to a point where the Security Council has to decide fairly soon whether or not it's going to enforce its own resolution.
MURRAY:
Prime Minister, the President says that Colin Powell next week will unveil clear evidence linking Iraq to al-Qaeda terrorism. If that's true, I think it would allay the concerns of many Australians about progressing this matter. Are you aware of that information?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not aware of the new information as you describe it. I am aware, and everybody is aware, of material on the public record from both the British and American Governments and also from some of our own unclassified or declassified intelligence that shows that Iraq does possess chemical and biological weapons and has an aspiration to develop nuclear weapons. The question of terrorist links - well in the past there's evidence that Iraq has assisted terrorism and they pay families of Palestinian suicide bombers a certain amount of money for each raid. But that's not al-Qaeda. I accept that. If there is some new evidence in relation to links with al-Qaeda then I believe that the world would be very interested in it. It is American intelligence and we have a very close intelligence sharing relationship with the Americans, but one of the reasons why it's close is that we leave it to them to decide when they're going to release their intelligence, and they do likewise with us.
MURRAY:
Our closest regional neighbour, Indonesia, as a result of the State of the Union address, has sent a message through to America saying that it should exercise self-restraint and not immediately decide to launch unilateral acts against Iraq. It's also urging the Security Council to extend the time for arms inspections. Are you concerned that our position is somewhat out of step with theirs?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'd always like to see a situation where everybody agreed on the right approach to all difficult issues. That stands to reason. America is using the Security Council. America has gone back to the United Nations. The inspectors would not be in Iraq now had it not been for the American military build-up. And that's not my view - well it is my view - but it's also the view of the Secretary General of the United Nations. We've got to understand cause and effect in something like this. You have a lot of people saying the Americans are wrong and they're criticising the Americans, let the United Nations solve it. The United Nations wouldn't even be addressing it now had it not been for the action of the Americans in taking it back to the General Assembly, taking it back to the Security Council. So I think there's an element of hypocrisy in this. On the one hand criticising the Americans and saying they're saying and doing too much and they shouldn't be deploying troops, but in the next breath saying oh look the process is working, let's give the inspectors more time. The inspectors are only there in large measure because of the pressure that was exerted by the United States and people have got to keep that in mind.
MURRAY:
Prime Minister, if America does decide to go it alone over the next couple of weeks, the decision for us to join them - would that be a decision for you to take unilaterally, would it be a Cabinet decision, or will you seek to get the authority of the Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well any military involvement, the final decision to commit Australia to a military operation of any kind would be a Cabinet decision. That's the way our Constitution works, that was the principle enunciated by Bob Hawke when he was Prime Minister back in 1991, and that is the process that I will follow. I have said that if Australian military forces are committed by the Government to action, then there will be a full parliamentary debate on that Government decision. But the decision is one for the executive Government to take. That has always been the situation in Australia and it's the way our Constitution operates. We are the Government. We are elected to take decisions. We take those decisions. Parliament scrutinises those decisions and debates them, but in the end we are elected and we must face the Australian people in relation to all of the decisions that we take. We've already had incidentally a very lengthy debate on this issue and Parliament will be going back next week and I'm quite certain there will be a lot of questions and discussions and debate about it again.
MURRAY:
There is no room for a debate on whether your electoral mandate gives you a mandate to take the country to war?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well people could argue that at any time. I'm just explaining what the Constitutional process is. The Constitutional process is that we, the Government, which is constituted by the Cabinet, will take any decision. That's what happened in relation to East Timor. That's what happened in 1991 in relation to the Gulf War that was carried out then. Bob Hawke didn't ask the Parliament whether he could do it, he just announced it. I'm not ever sure at that time there was a full Cabinet meeting when the initial deployment decision was made.
MURRAY:
In his speech yesterday the President of America said the course of this nation doesn't depend on the decisions of others. Is this boiling down to a fundamental test of the relevance of the United Nations?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think separately from that statement, I didn't read that statement as being other than the statement of the obvious. I mean every nation makes it own decisions and every nation has to be held accountable, not only in the bar of its own domestic opinion but also in the bar of world opinion for its answers. But this is an issue that involves the credibility of the Security Council. It has to be said Paul that the reason why I think this issue is important to Australia is that it is in Australia's interests to prevent the spread of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons to more states than now have them and particularly the states that are rogue states, that have a demonstrated contempt for human rights and a demonstrated capacity and intent to invade other countries. Australia doesn't have chemical or biological or nuclear weapons and we don't want them, we don't have them. And we don't think other countries, other than those authorised by international agreement should have them. That's why we feel so very strongly about this. That's the reason why this is important to Australia. See we are not a big power, we are not a country that has been authorised by international agreements to have nuclear weapons, that's why we signed the non-proliferation agreement way back in the 1970's and it's been the policy of both Coalition and Labor Governments to strongly support international efforts to prevent the spread of chemical and biological and nuclear weapons and that's the issue at stake here because if Iraq is allowed to retain these weapons other countries will say well Iraq has thumbed its nose at world opinion, we can do the same and I ask the rhetorical question, what hope have we got of controlling North Korea if Iraq is able successfully to thumb its nose at world opinion over its chemical and biological weapons?
Now that's the argument for Australia being concerned and involved in this issue. There is also of course a consideration of our alliance relationship with the United Nations, that's not the dominant issue, but it's an important issue. In the long run America remains our most important ally and in the long run the nation that's most important still to our security. That's not to say we're indifferent to other countries but in the balance of relationships there is none more important, Australians will know the importance of that alliance in years long gone by. So these are the sort of considerations that I've bough to bear on this issue but the central concern I have and the central reason why the Security Council has got to act and do something about that, this issue, or lose credibility, is the possession by Iraq of these weapons and the potential if we don't do something about them that they will spread and ultimately the nightmare that they might, I repeat might, fall into the hands of terrorists.
MURRAY:
One last question Prime Minister, Mr Bush said that if they had to, America would fight a war in a just cause and by just means sparing in every way we can the innocent. Isn't the reality that a war like the one that we're on the brink of now can't spare the innocent?
PRIME MINISTER:
Paul, war is horrible, war is abominable, it is always to be avoided other than as a completely last resort. That's why I hope that the United Nations Security Council meets its responsibilities. The slim hope that there is that you might get Iraq to see sense and declare and allow the supervised destruction of the weapons she has will come about if the Security Council unanimously tells Iraq that unless it complies in full it will face the consequences, including military consequences. Now if the United Nations Security Council does that, that will in fact be the best opportunity we've yet seen for a completely peaceful solution because in the past Iraq has only reacted to pressure and to the threat of force. He ignores anything, anybody who thinks that if we just walk away from this Iraq will benignly oblige by getting rid of these weapons doesn't understand the way these things work and the mentality of the leadership of Iraq. Now I don't want a war, I hate the idea of it, this issue weighs very heavily, very heavily indeed on me, more than any other issue I've felt in the time that I've been Prime Minister. But in the end I've got to make the decision that I think the best in the long term interests of Australia and I have thought about this a lot, for the reasons I've tried to outline, I think it is important to Australia, it's not just a question of the American alliance, although that is important. It is fundamentally whether a country like Australia has a long term interest in preventing the spread of these weapons, I believe we do, I believe we have to join all necessary international efforts, overwhelmingly to be preferred through the United Nations, to stop their spread and that's why I'm taking the stance I am and that is why the Government stands where it does at the present time.
MURRAY:
Appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today. Thanks a lot.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]