FAINE:
The Prime Minister joins us from our Parliament House studios. Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Jon. How are you?
FAINE:
I'm exceptionally well, and thank you for making time for us. We will make sure that lots of callers get a chance to ask you questions, as well as those that I thought I'd start with - 94141774 of course is the number. As we've heard on AM Prime Minister, Alexander Downer has made a speech yesterday which has been interpreted in some quarters - Richard Butler and the Opposition both saying this is an attack on the United Nations. Are you intending to attack the United Nations?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I thought both of them completely overreacted. Our position in relation to the United Nations is very clear. We have been a member in good standing with the United Nations since its formation after World War II. We don't always agree with the United Nations. We thought the Security Council didn't rise to its responsibilities over Iraq. I totally reject the claim that what we did in Iraq was contrary to international law. There were 17 resolutions of the Security Council which dealt with the failure of Iraq to comply with its obligations to demonstrate that it had rid itself of weapons of mass destruction, and everything that we did was properly based in international law. But there are occasions when the judgement that you have to make in concert with other countries is not necessarily agreed to by all other countries. We took action in relation to Iraq that was properly based in international law. It was certainly the right thing to do in a humanitarian context, and people should not construe from that, nor was there anything in Mr Downer's speech to suggest that because of that we're now attacking the United Nations. He made the perfectly valid point that if you have a blind faith always in a multilateral outcome, you don't always get the right result. I mean self-evidently on the trade front at the moment, we are pursuing free trade agreements with the United States and Thailand because it's in Australia's long-term interests that we do that. You've always got to look to Australia's national interest. The thing that drives me in foreign policy is the interests of Australia, and they will always be paramount in my mind. And those interests include of course cooperation with an involvement in the United Nations, but they will on occasions result in this country taking action, along with other nations, to pursue legitimate international objectives.
FAINE:
Aren't we left with the impression then that if it's not an attack on the United Nations, it's some sort of impatience with the failings of the United Nations as you perceive it?
PRIME MINISTER:
We have never disguised points of disagreement with the United Nations. That doesn't mean to say we always disagree with it, or mostly disagree with it. I think the reaction of Mr Butler and Mr Rudd, I mean they were both essentially saying the same thing, so I think they just overreacted. I suppose they've got to say something, but they just overreacted.
FAINE:
Well turning to the Solomons, which is an example of where Australia is protecting the interests of the region, not just our own interests, how long do you think Australian troops are going to be there for?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the preliminary indications are probably a small number of months, let me put it that way. It might be longer. I don't know. This is our region. This is an area where we do have very direct responsibilities. It is not in Australia's interests to have failed states in our region. The Solomon Islands is a country of 500,000 people. It really is struggling in every way, and if we do get a proper request from the Government, a legal request, then it would be totally in order according to international law, for us to put in a policing operation that would need to be supported by the military. The emphasis is on police, restoration of law and order, the justice system, economic reconstruction, but you need because of the danger involved, you need to have a military presence to protect the police presence.
FAINE:
The objective when we went in with the United States and Britain to Iraq, as you told me last time we spoke, was regime change and to introduce an independent and democratically elected Government in Iraq. Is it a similar objective with the Solomons, to get back to the point where it can be a functioning democracy?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the circumstances are different.
FAINE:
Oh, of course. But until then...
PRIME MINISTER:
We're being asked by the Government of the Solomons to come in.
FAINE:
But until they are back on a stable footing, we will offer them that sort of assistance. Is it open-ended?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't think we can compare the two. I think it's just completely misleading and an entirely different situation. We're dealing with a very small country that has a big law and order problem, and the Prime Minister of that country came to Canberra a few weeks ago and asked me for help to restore law and order, to help the economy, and we'll go there providing we get the legal request, and provided the conditions under which we respond are acceptable to the people of the Solomon Islands, we'll go there and try and do the job in concert with New Zealand and I hope also other countries from the Pacific region. How long will it take? I don't know. I hope it is short rather than long, but I'm always wary about committing myself to a precise date because it's quite impossible to know exactly how long these things will take.
FAINE:
Prime Minister, there has been allegation and counter-allegation from both sides of politics in relation to immigration [inaudible] and there has been some pretty filthy stuff being alleged by and from both sides of politics in the parliament in the last week or two. Is it time now for an independent inquiry to get to the bottom of all that is being said about your side and the other side of politics?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think we need any independent inquiry. I don't believe for a moment any evidence has been presented that Mr Ruddock has behaved improperly. If people have got allegations, then they should take those allegations to the police. I was reading the paper this morning that the latest allegation made in relation to Mr Tan and Mr Kisrwani are going to be given to the police. Well that's the right thing to do. They're the independent body, and I don't fear any police investigation. Let it go ahead if that is appropriate.
FAINE:
When you introduced your ministerial code of conduct, you said you would have new and rigid standards for ministers in any Government who served under you. Now allegations are being made that would be, if they're proven, clearly in breach of that code of conduct.
PRIME MINISTER:
Jon, the critical thing is if they're proven. Anybody can make an allegation, especially under parliamentary privilege, and if they have proof, let us have the proof. I mean they haven't produced any proof in parliament that Mr Ruddock behaved improperly, no proof at all. If they have any proof, give it to me and I'll have a look at it. If they have any proof, give it the police and let the police have a look at it. Of course I have a rigid code which means that if people don't behave properly, they can't escape sanction and censure. But you've got to demonstrate the impropriety. It's not good enough to allege it. It's easy for an opposition member to allege impropriety. It is entirely a different thing for them to prove it. Now, you have a situation with immigration policy where quite properly in my view, the Minister has the right in the final analysis to exercise certain powers and certain discretions. I mean he is constantly asked by members of parliament to do that. I mean, I get representations as a local member from people and I put them to the Minister, and the Minister makes a decision and I accept that decision. And I go back to my constituent and say well look I'm sorry but the Minister has said no.
FAINE:
I'm more concerned about the integrity of our immigration system than the reputation of either Senator Bolkus or dare I say it and with respect, Philip Ruddock.
PRIME MINISTER:
You did ask me about allegations made so far....
FAINE:
Both sides...
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that...
FAINE:
And I think...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you say the integrity of the immigration system. Well, once again, what is the evidence that the immigration system lacks integrity?
FAINE:
The allegations being made both about Mr Bolkus, which he failed to explain adequately, I mean $10,000 has gone into an account somewhere...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that has nothing to do with our immigration system. That has nothing to do with the integrity of the immigration system, that has to do with whether or not Mr Bolkus complied with the Commonwealth Electoral Act.
FAINE:
But if people are paying money to politicians in order of they think to get a better run on an application for permanent residence into Australia, the system is starting to look pretty shabby, it's not the highest standards of public office and conduct in public office and people are starting to make all sorts of jokes about it in passing references, people are saying - oh, the whole system's a lottery and so on and so forth, and every day there's a new allegation, every day.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Jon, there are processes in this country that if people think the law has been broken that they can make those complaints to the authorities. If the Labor Party thinks that there's been something done in breach of Commonwealth law, they can go to the Federal Police - and I read in one of the papers this morning that that's going to happen, well that's fine.
FAINE:
Yep.
PRIME MINISTER:
And if people believe that something was done improperly in relation to the processes of the immigration department, they should in the first instance take those complaints to the relevant section of the Department of Immigration, they will be investigated and I'm quite certain if there's anything in it, that will communicated to the Minister. But in the absence of some concrete evidence of impropriety by the Minister or impropriety by the Department, I'm not going to just on the whim of an allegation made by the Labor Party under parliamentary privilege establish an inquiry. And you asked me about Senator Bolkus, well Senator Bolkus, if he's in breach - and I'm not alleging at this stage anything more - but if he's in breach then the Australian Electoral Commission will have a look at that matter because the Australian Electoral Commission has the authority and the procedure to deal with it. But we can't have a dog and bark in these situations, you can't have a procedure through the Federal Police, a procedure through the Immigration Department, a procedure through the Australian Electoral Commission, and then when an allegation is made because it gets a run in the media...
FAINE:
Yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well say, oh we've got to set up an independent inquiry. I mean, let the process work and if anybody has done anything improper, it will out.
FAINE:
Alright. I want to make sure that there's lots of time for our listeners to ask you question, too. And we've got them waiting - 94141774. But last question from me Prime Minister. The Imam of the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney's south-west, Sheikh Aldin al-Hilali, if I'm pronouncing it correctly...
PRIME MINISTER:
I think you are.
FAINE:
Has complained via ABC TV's Lateline last night that he was signalled out by Customs officers for what described as humiliating and aggressive treatment at Sydney Airport this week. He says he's writing to you to complain, I don't know if you've received that letter yet or if you want to respond to his claim.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I haven't received the letter, but I will respond to it when I see it. I am told by Customs that there was a search carried out, it was based on the proper processes, it was done politely and courteously and they deny, of course, any suggestion of discrimination. They do deny that and they assert that it was done in accordance with procedures and the search and so forth was properly based.
FAINE:
Was he known to be the spiritual leader of Australian Muslims when he...?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I wasn't there...
FAINE:
No, I understand that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I...
FAINE:
But you've made inquiries this morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, in the little time that has been available, I have been informed that he was searched, I have been informed by Customs and I'll just read what I've been told - and this comes from the Media and Public Affairs - it says,