HOST: Prime Minister Julia Gillard, good morning. Are you there, Prime Minister? Are you there, Prime Minister?
PM: Good morning, Madonna.
HOST: Yes, I'm sorry. I don't know what happened with the phones then, my apologies.
Can I go to Qantas first? The Government says it will act to resolve the dispute. Qantas pilots this morning are accusing the airline of walking away from negotiations. Several aircraft have been grounded. When is it time to use any emergency powers you might have?
PM: Probably we just redial the number.
HOST: No, I can hear you, Prime Minister.
PM: Hello Madonna. I was just contemplating whether we should redial the number, because-
HOST: -We all heard that conversation, yes.
PM: I could hear you, but you couldn't hear me.
HOST: Alright, so you can hear me clearly now.
PM: Absolutely.
HOST: Alright, let's start again. Qantas - the Government says it will act to resolve the dispute. Qantas pilots this morning are accusing the airline of walking away from negotiations. When it is time to use any emergency powers you have?
PM: The powers under the Fair Work Act for the government are to make application if a dispute escalates to the stage that it threatens the national economy.
We are still at the stage in this dispute where both parties say they want to negotiate a conclusion to it, so my message to them has been loud and clear: they should get round a table and get it done.
HOST: Do negotiations have to break down before you consider the emergency powers, or could you think that the Australian public is being so disadvantaged, so put out, that you would step in?
PM: Well there's a clear legal test here Madonna, under the Fair Work Act, about threats to the national economy, that's what the law provides. We are still at the stage in this dispute where the parties say they want to work it through. Well, they need to get that resolved and get it done. Like you, I am very concerned about the impact that it's having on passengers.
HOST: Are you concerned? Are you cranky? Is one party, either management or the union, not doing enough to resolve this?
PM: Well, the last thing I'm going to do, Madonna, is pick sides. What's important is that both parties get to the negotiating table and get it sorted out.
HOST: Alright, let's move on to other issues. There's so many to get through this morning. Is a leadership contest with Kevin Rudd now inevitable?
PM: Oh Madonna, let's move on.
HOST: But it's a genuine question, given what you're reading, what you're hearing day in, day out. Can you say ‘look, it is not inevitable' or are you thinking perhaps it is down the track.
PM: Madonna, I will be Prime Minister until the 2013 election and then the people of Australia will have their say.
HOST: Do you believe you have his support?
PM: Look, I've just answered your question Madonna and Kevin Rudd's answered that question.
HOST: But you're stopping short of saying yes, he does have your support.
PM: Oh, no, that's because I'm asking you to rely on Kevin Rudd's words in direct answer to that question.
HOST: So is it fair to say you believe Kevin Rudd, you have Kevin Rudd's full support?
PM: Madonna, I'm referring you to Kevin Rudd's words, because he's said that. So Madonna, we can spend all of this interview talking about those kinds of questions and speculation on the polls, or we can talk about things I believe matter to Australians. I'm actually here in Queensland, going to the Queensland Reconstruction Authority today.
HOST: But you say you're here to look at reconstruction and these are things that matter to people. You've had a win on the floor of Parliament on the carbon tax, but that's so different to the public, which isn't supporting you on this carbon tax, or indeed your leadership. If you look at the polls, how do you convince voters that you're right on both counts?
PM: Well, leadership's about making the hard decisions that are necessary for the nation's future. If you look at the things that have built this nation, they've often been hotly contested at the time. I mean, things we just wouldn't be without now - Medicare, compulsory superannuation, all very hotly contested at the time.
Things like floating the Australian dollar and reducing tariffs - deeply unpopular at the time, but the right decision for that nation's future.
HOST: Are you over the worst of this, then - the carbon tax is essentially done, it will get better from here?
PM: Oh Madonna, you're putting it in the frame of ‘what does it mean for me'. The appropriate thing here is what does it mean for the nation. And what-
HOST: -But you want to keep your job.
PM: Well, Madonna, I do this job because I'm motivated to make the big decisions, the tough decisions that will ensure that we've got the best possible future for this country. I want to see people having the benefit of jobs and work. I don't want to see us being a nation that's left behind as other countries around the world and in our region seize clean energy jobs and we are left with an old-fashioned economy.
HOST: Just before I get on to the asylum seekers, when will we see a complete list of these 500 companies that will have to pay the carbon tax?
PM: Well, the system will start on 1 July next year, Madonna, and then of course it will be clear who is paying the carbon price and it will be the biggest polluters.
HOST: We understand that, but is there a list being drawn up? Can we look at what companies are from Queensland on that list, for example?
PM: Well there's information available on one of our government websites, a greenhouse website, so there has been tracking of carbon pollution emissions from businesses for some time. The way the carbon pricing works is it goes to what is happening at a site level, so that is a new piece of information and of course that will be worked on and worked through before carbon pricing starts on 1 July next year.
But Madonna, the important thing here, the really important thing, is our nation is a nation that generates more carbon pollution per person than any other developed nation on earth. What that means it we are at real risk, unless we change, of being stuck with an old-fashioned economy, as people move to a clean energy economy.
HOST: But don't you have to take the public with you? You say that's the important-
PM: -If you let me finish my sentence, let's actually got through the merits of this. I think the merits of this are really important to the public debate.
It's about clean energy jobs and it's about reducing carbon pollution, and if you ask most Australians do they believe climate change is real, they will say yes. If you ask most Australians do they believe that carbon pollution is causing climate change and it's made by us, human beings, they would say yes to that.
This will reduce carbon pollution by 160 million tonnes in 2020.
HOST: You and I have talked about this many times. Let's move on to the asylum seeker issue. It is as though your government is lurching from one crisis to another. The asylum issue, can you explain to my listeners what you are doing with asylum seekers from here?
PM: Well, I can Madonna, but I did want to pull you up on the question of carbon pricing. We will keep talking about this. We will keep talking about the merits of putting a price on carbon because this is such a big change to our economy-
HOST: -You've made that point-
PM: -If I can finish my sentence - but I don't think it's a question of just explaining it on your show once, or indeed on many media outlet once. I think people still are hungry for information, so we will keep describing it and the benefits of cutting taxes and increasing pensions that come with it-
HOST: -Alright-
PM: -On asylum seekers, the policy of the Government is that we want to implement our arrangements with Malaysia. We believe that this would send the maximum deterrence message-
HOST: -But in the meantime, ‘what are you doing?' was the question. How are you treating asylum seekers now?
PM: Well, in the meantime what we will do, Madonna, is we will continue our work in the region, with our regional partners to detect and disrupt people smugglers and we've had success in that. we've worked strongly with countries like Indonesia in law enforcement and you should expect to continue to see us have a very strong focus on that.
HOST: But boats arriving now, are they dealt with onshore?
PM: Boats arriving now will be processed at Christmas Island, or at detention centres in Australia. We will not be adding to the number of detention centres. People will be detained on a mandatory basis for health checks, security checks and identity checks.
HOST: And they will be put into the community then, once the detention centres are filled?
PM: Well, we have already, even though we have spare capacity in detention centres, we have already moved, particularly for women and children, to a community based model of detention. That is because Australians, I think, were rightly distressed under the Howard Government when they saw images of children being kept in high-security facilities, literally behind razor wire. We already have asylum seekers who arrive by plane living in the community on bridging visas, so these instruments are all known to our current immigration policies-
HOST:-Alright, so in the -
PM: -and we will continue to make use of them.
HOST: How many ministers supported the Nauru solution in the Cabinet meeting?
PM: I'm not talking about things that happen in Cabinet, Madonna. That's confidential.
HOST: What is wrong with the Nauru solution?
PM: Well, Tony Abbott has consistently said that he wants a detention centre on Nauru, not with the Malaysia agreement, just as a standalone, a detention centre on Nauru. The very same experts who advised the Howard Government at the most senior levels, and were very trusted by the Howard Government, are telling us crystal clear that that won't work. And they've told Mr Abbott that that won't work.
HOST: But you said onshore processing won't work either.
PM: What I've said Madonna, is my preferred solution is the innovative arrangement with Malaysia, but because of Mr Abbott's obstructionism we can't implement that-
HOST: -Well, because of the High Court you can't implement that.
PM: Well, the High Court certainly changed our understanding and everyone's understanding of Australian law, so we brought to the Parliament legislation which would have put this Government in the same position as the Howard Government was. And the great irony here Madonna, is that this legislation would be needed by Mr Abbott if he were ever Prime Minister and he wanted to put asylum seekers on Nauru.
HOST: Alight, have you hauled in every minister and questioned them whether they leaked the Cabinet discussions, because surely you admit that hurts your authority?
PM: I'll obviously deal with Cabinet matters confidentially, as they should be dealt with.
HOST: But as a strong leader, do you think every minister should say to you they were not responsible for leaking that information?
PM: Well, as Prime Minister I've been very determined to make sure we have a proper Cabinet system of government. I've rebuilt a proper Cabinet system of government. That does enable minsters to have frank and fearless discussions within Cabinet. That right comes with the responsibility of confidentiality.
HOST: Alright, what about the meeting in your office with Bill Shorten and Stephen Conroy and Mark Arbib. Presumably that doesn't come under Cabinet confidence. You met with them last Thursday. What was their issue?
PM: Look, I'm not going to engage in this scuttlebutt, Madonna, and think you've seen some direct denials in the newspapers about some of those things, too.
HOST: You said you expect the number of asylum seekers to rise quite dramatically if they are processed onshore. Have you done any analysis on how many we can expect?
PM: Look, what I've said is we are at a real risk of more boats coming because of Mr Abbott's negativity and obstructionism. I mean, the great issue here is we wanted government, this Government and future governments, to have the same powers available to it to make choices about offshore processing that the Howard Government had, that Mr Abbott believed the Howard Government should have, but in order to play political wrecker Mr Abbott has decided to block this legislation.
But my preferred position is Malaysia, but Mr Abbott's wrecking the ability of this country to have offshore processing-
HOST: -And so your second choice is onshore processing here in Australia?
PM: Well, you need to understand Mr Abbott is blocking the legislation-
HOST:-I understand that-
PM: -that would enable offshore processing anywhere.
HOST: I understand that, so you're saying that that's what you're left with?
PM: Well, without the legal ability to process asylum seekers offshore, whether it's this Government or any future government, there is no ability to process asylum seekers offshore. So whenever Mr Abbott says Nauru, he is actually now deliberately deceiving Australians. If he became Prime Minister he would not have the legal ability to send asylum seekers to Nauru.
HOST: Alright, just a very quick question before I let you go - poker machines will come up before the end of the year, the community groups that now rely on funding from these clubs, if Wilkie's poker machine proposals get through, special schools, sports groups, the Scouts, St Vincent de Paul - will there be compensation for groups like that?
PM: Well, I think we need to back up that truck a fair bit, Madonna. We are in discussions with the gaming industry and of course we're open to discussions with groups of all types. We want to get this right. We want to get it right so that it works for everyone.
I think generally Australians think that it's a good thing to have entertainment options, what you want to do on a Friday or a Saturday night, people will make different choices, but some people will decide to go and play pokies and have a meal and have a bet and that's fine, that's part of entertainment, part of life.
But I think at the same time many Australians are concerned about the circumstances of problem gamblers, and probably too many Australians know someone who's wrecked their life because of poker addiction and probably they want to see a better way of dealing with that. Well, so do I, and we'll work through to get the scheme right.
HOST: Julia Gillard, thank you.
PM: Thank you.