OAKES: Prime Minister welcome to the program.
PM: Good morning Laurie.
OAKES: We've got a debt crisis in Europe, in America unemployment's rising, there's even talk of a recession, in Australia we've got a collapse in consumer confidence. How worried are you about the economy?
PM: There are some signs of increased risks from Europe and the United States Laurie, you are right. And here we do have cautious consumers, they've lived through the global financial crisis, they've seen some huge natural disasters in Queensland, New Zealand, Japan and obviously people have increased their savings. I'm very conscious of that, but I'm also very conscious that the underlining fundamentals of our economy are strong, we are in the right part of the world, the part of the world where economies are growing. For example, the economy of China is still growing very strongly, we come to this with a good budget position, with low unemployment and with a huge pipeline of investment coming through, $430 billion - so I'm very confident in the underlying strength of our economy.
OAKES: But if the world is facing an economic crisis, if there's fear and uncertainty about the economy here, is it the right time to put extra strain on the economy with a carbon tax?
PM: Look Laurie, I think we've got to look at our economy in our position, you are absolutely right to say we are not immune from global events but let's look at our region of the world where we are trading strongly with growing economies like China, and as a result in our recourses sector alone $430 billion of investment planned. So a strong economy, low unemployment, a good financial system and we come to this with a strong budget position. Now for me Laurie in terms of timing the change that we need to make for a clean energy future, the time to act is now. The sooner we act then the easier the transition will be and we do come to this with a strong economy-
OAKES: Why at a time when the economy does seem to be at some risk? Why take an extra risk?
PM: Well Laurie if I can put it this way, we've got an economy that's growing, we've got low unemployment, we've got a good government budget position, we've got a strong financial sector. We know that there is hundreds of billions of dollars of investment in the pipeline, they are good conditions in which to act for a change in your economy. And Laurie if I can also say this to you, let's remember in all of this debate with all of its kind of heat and fury, both sides of politics agree we should be cutting our emissions by minus five percent by 2020. So really what we are debating is when to start and how to do it. If you are going to do something by 2020 the best thing is to start soon and to do it in the most economically responsible way. That's the plan I put forward last Sunday.
OAKES: Now you've got this advertising campaign starting today, $12 million bucks worth to start with, I mention, if it'll help, you'll spend more than that. Now why, that's another broken promise isn't it? You promised that you wouldn't do what John Howard did and spend tax payers money pushing a party political line?
PM: Well this advertising campaign is about getting people information. Let's be clear about-
OAKES: That's what John Howard said of course.
PM: Well, let's be clear about the figures here Laurie. We've been very upfront with people that there would be $12 million of television advertising and another $13 million allocated to getting people the information they need. This is a change for our economy, it's a change for households, there are tax cuts, pension increases, family benefits, things that people will want to understand. There has been a lot of fear around, a lot of misconceptions so we want to get to people the accurate information they need to prepare for this change.
OAKES: And John Howard said exactly the same about the Work Choices ads, about the GST ads, and Labor didn't accept that.
PM: Well Laurie let's get a sense of size and scale here. You remember as I remember the more than $100 million used in Work Choices advertising and I don't recall the figure for the GST but I do recall that it was all about Joe Cocker signing ‘Unchain your Heart'. These advertisements are bout getting people information they need about our clean energy future-
OAKES: Is this spending capped at $12 million though, or could you go higher?
PM: We've said $12 million for the advertising campaign and there will be another $13 million in getting information to people. I've been out and about this week Laurie talking to a lot of people. They do want information, they want to understand what it will mean for them and their family, they're quite relieved to hear that there is a website they can get on, a household estimator they can use to work out what it's going to mean for them and their family. I think it is appropriate to get people that kind of information.
OAKES: As you say you have been charging around selling as hard as you can go, have you detecting any change, are you making any impact or do people still either not listen or hate you for it?
PM: I believe Laurie that when you give people the facts, the facts make a difference. And the facts are on our side. In community meetings and in meetings with workers when I've been able to explain to them the facts of our plan, that we are going to seize a clean energy future, we are going to assist families and many families will be better off as a result of that assistance, jobs will continue to grow, industries like steel have been assisted, the coal mining industry is still going to be strong, people are reassured to hear those facts.
OAKES: Now you, I think are making a particular thing about seniors and the benefits for seniors in your package, that they'll be over compensated, quite a lot of them, what's the big selling point there, why are you so intent on making that an issue?
PM: Well 1.8 million pensioner households in this country and on average they will be $210 a year better off, that is after they've paid the average cost of the carbon price flow through to the things that they buy. And then there are self funded retirees who will not only benefit from a $300 a year tax cut but will benefit from a further $200 that comes to them from the special tax arrangements for seniors. And a number of them will also qualify for the same bonuses as pensioners, that's $338 for a single pensioner, $510 for a pensioner couple. Now Laurie what does this all add up to? Well there will be millions of Australians who will receive more money than they need to address the price impacts flowing from putting a price on the biggest polluters, and on 1 July next year Tony Abbott is going to have to look those millions of Australians direct in the eye and say I'm taking that money which makes you better off, off you. I'm going to claw that extra money away from you.
OAKES: But the polls would indicate that this doesn't worry them, that they dislike the tax so much, that they favour Mr Abbott.
PM: Well Laurie, as I said last weekend democracy isn't one long opinion poll, it's about making the decisions that are right for the nation's future and about giving people the facts. I think Australians are entitled to understand what benefits there are flowing through tax cuts and pension increases. What special benefits there are for seniors and they're entitled to understand that Mr Abbott is saying to them when you get those benefits on the 1 July next year that he wants to strip those benefits away. The extra money that we are giving people he wants to take it back.
OAKES: But democracy is all about elections and Mr Abbott says that if he wins the next election he will repeal this carbon tax legislation, well why shouldn't he do that, if he has got the mandate, what right does the Labor party have to stop him?
PM: Well I'm not going to make assumptions about what happens in the election in 2013, but I do believe Mr Abbott has to be very frank with the Australian people that the logical consequence of his policy is he will rip money, that is benefitting people, away from those people. They will have it in their purse, they'll have it in their wallet, it will be more money than they need to address any price impacts from carbon pricing and he will rip it away.
OAKES: But he is talking about going to a double dissolution election if necessary, having a joint sitting to get rid of your carbon tax, he is obviously quite confident they he has won this argument.
PM: Well for Mr Abbot this is all about the politics, for me this is about the nation's future. I want us to have a strong economy, I want us to have the clean energy jobs of the future, and I want us to do that while we are reducing carbon pollution and doing the right thing by the environment. So Laurie, that's what I've been out explaining last week and what I will continue to explain. I believe most Australians accept climate change is real, they do want us to take effective action to reduce carbon pollution, of course they worry about jobs and cost of living, but with this package we can reduce carbon pollution, do the right thing by our environment, see our economy continue to grow strongly, have more jobs in our economy and help nine out of ten households with the flow through impacts of pricing carbon.
OAKES: Now seems to me there are two issues hurting Labor at the moment, one is the carbon tax, the other is Julia Gillard. What are you doing about the second issue?
PM: Laurie, I'm here as Prime Minister saying to the Australian people that I'm prepared to take the hard decisions that are necessary for us to have a prosperous future and for us to give people the kind of opportunity in the future that Australians want for themselves and their kids. They want a strong economy, I think they want a clean energy future. They want a better environment-
OAKES: But what about the problem of Julia Gillard? When John Howard's ratings were diving in 2007, he went into his cabinet and he said, ‘It is me?' Have you asked your ministers is it you?
PM: My ministers like me are determined to see us stump up to the hard reform, and no-one in the Labor Party has been under any illusion about how hard it would be. But we are doing this because it is the right thing for the country's future.
OAKES: But your problem is not just about the carbon tax is it? It goes back to well before that, to the election campaign. I just wonder - how confident are you that you have the support of your party and will keep it? Because I understand you were actually ringing around in the last week of parliament just checking on your support, ringing Caucus members.
PM: That's completely untrue Laurie.
OAKES: Not true?
PM: Completely untrue. Of course, I speak to Caucus members all the time about things like campaigning on carbon pricing, about our plans for health and education, what we are doing the keep the economy strong, talking to them about issues in their own electorates. Laurie, this is about a big decision for the nation's future. And as Prime Minister, I have never underestimated how tough this was going to be. And I could have taken the politically easy course. I could have said, ‘Let's just put climate change in the too hard basket', a lot easier for me as Prime Minister to just park a hard issue. Not the right thing for the nation's future. So I've stumped up to do what I believe is best for Australians - a better environment, a stronger economy. It is tough now. There's a lot of fear and anxiety around and I will keep combating that fear and anxiety with simple facts. Now, I know Mr Abbott brushes the facts away as if they are confetti - you know - don't worry about the facts. Well, the facts matter. The facts about cutting carbon pollution by 160 million tonnes, the fact that nine out of ten households will get assistance, the fact that millions of Australians will be better off, and Mr Abbott wants to rip that money away from them. But jobs will keep growing-
OAKES: But politics is also about leaders being able to win support and to persuade voters. What is the difference between your position now and that of Kevin Rudd when you tapped him on the shoulder, except that the Government is now less popular than it was then and the leader is now less popular than the then leader was? What's the difference?
PM: Laurie I'm not going to go back in time and talk about those events. I have talked about them frequently-
OAKES: But you haven't you see, you have always refused to talk them.
PM: Well I explained why the Labor team made the leadership decision that they did last year. And what they have now-
OAKES: And what is the difference now?
PM: What they have now is me as Prime Minister, pursuing with determination, a plan that the Labor team believes in. We never thought it was going to be easy. We knew it was going to be tough. We knew we would have to go out and campaign and persuade and get people the facts. And we are determined to do that.
OAKES: But you see, what they had a year ago was a leader who had been told by you in February he shouldn't go to a double dissolution on pricing carbon, and he had been told by you in April that he should shelve that plan. And now you are out there saying, ‘I've always believed in pricing carbon.'
PM: Laurie, you are making a lot of assumptions and I'm not going to share those assumptions with you. I've always believed-
OAKES: But don't you think you need to answer those questions if people are going to have any faith in you.
PM: And I'm very happy to answer all of those questions, Laurie. I've always believed climate change is real, I've always believed the best and most efficient way of addressing it is to put a price on carbon. We are pricing carbon with a three year fixed price, effectively a carbon tax and then getting to an emissions trading scheme, a cap and trade scheme. I spoke to people in the last election about getting to that cap and trade scheme. Yes, we are in different circumstances than I envisaged in the last election campaign but the nation's interests require us to seize the opportunity to address climate change.
OAKES: You say we're in different circumstances but it seems to me that your excuse for breaking the election promise is that the Greens made you do it. Now do you really believe that Bob Brown would have supported Tony Abbott if you said, ‘I'm not going to break my election promise.'
PM: Laurie, once again, I'm not agreeing with the premise of your question. My case here is we've got an opportunity in this parliament to do what the nation needs done to put a price on carbon. The way our democracy works is if the majority of people in the parliament agree, something needs to be done, you can get it done.
OAKES: But the way a majority works is politicians go to an election, they set out their policies, people choose between rival policies. You set out a dishonest policy. You promised this would not happen. Your excuse for breaking the promise is that the Greens made you do it. I want to know how did they make you do it?
PM: Laurie, I'm not saying that at all. You are putting words in my mouth and it is not fair to do that. Laurie, at the last election, I said to the Australian people, ‘Climate change is real. We need to put a price on carbon, I want a cap and trade scheme.' And I did say to them that there would be no carbon tax. I didn't want to see us have a system that was taxing but not getting to a cap and trade scheme. That is what I wanted for our economy to know that it wasn't going to generate more carbon pollution than a particular cap. Now, in this parliament, I have worked to get this done. And, yes, it does mean that we will have a three year carbon tax, a temporary carbon tax to get to a permanent emissions trading scheme. Now, I've made the decisions to do this, and I knew politically it wasn't going to be easy for me or for the Labour Party. But I've made these decisions because they're in the nation's best interest. And the alternative, Laurie, was for me to look at this parliament and to say, all too hard, shove it in the too hard basket, lose another three years where we are not tackling climate change and getting ourselves the clean energy future.
OAKES: We're out of time Prime Minister.
PM: I wasn't prepared to do that.
OAKES: But you had promised in the election, no carbon tax and no action at all until you had a consensus. There's no consensus, except against your tax. You misled the people.
PM: Well Laurie, you can put it all like that or you can say to yourself, ‘What is in this nation's interest today?' It is in our nation's interest to tackle climate change and get the clean energy jobs of the future. By the time people vote in 2013, they will know exactly what this scheme of pricing carbon means for them and their families and for the biggest polluters in our country. People will be able to vote in 2013 not on the basis of scare campaigns or things they've been asked to believe that are not true. They will be able to live it and judge for themselves.
OAKES: We thank you.
PM: Thank you.