HOST: Prime Minister, good morning and welcome to Brisbane.
PM: Good morning Madonna.
HOST: One from me which encapsulates many that have come in overnight, without political speak?
PM: Sure.
HOST: Why did you say there would be no carbon tax six days before the election and now you're going to introduce one without a mandate to do that?
PM: That's a good question. What I talked about at the last election was having an emissions trading scheme, that's a price on carbon, but where you also put a cap and say our economy is not going to generate more carbon pollution than a particular figure. Now I didn't foresee before the election the Parliament that we have. In this Parliament I faced a choice, either I said, right, only an emissions trading scheme and that would have mean we wouldn't have acted, nothing would have got done. Or I had to make a hard choice and say right, we'll get there-
HOST: -To get the support from the Greens and the Independents?
PM: That's right, to work with the Parliament that people voted for. Yes, we'll get there, to an emissions trading scheme, we'll get there through a three year period of a fixed price, effectively a tax. So we are going to start with that price on carbon 1 July next year. It's not the pathway I saw, but it's a pathway that's going to cut carbon pollution, give businesses certainty and get us to that emissions trading scheme with a cap on our carbon pollution.
HOST: Anthony from Morningside says who are the 100 Queensland polluters, will they be publicly named?
PM: The 100 polluters, the industries that these big polluters are in, are named on the Clean Energy website, I don't think any of the industries will surprise people. They're things like electricity generation, aluminium, zinc, cement, some of those industries. We also have a website that is our national greenhouse gas reporting, that will give you lists of companies that generate a lot of pollution and use a lot of energy. We have some specific material which is commercial-in-confidence, which why we just can't publish a finite list. But if you want to look at some business names, get on that National Greenhouse Gas website.
HOST: Two different Peters from two different sides of Brisbane but a similar question - under your Treasury estimates, Australia currently emits 578 million tonnes. With the carbon tax that will be 621 million tonnes in 2020. Why do it for such little effect?
PM: Because the future we face is of ever escalating growth in carbon pollution or making a difference to the amount. So, the concept here is as our nation's economy is growing, every day it's growing we put out more carbon pollution, that will happen 'til the end of time - growing economy, more carbon pollution, growing economy, more carbon pollution. With a price on carbon we will ultimately break that nexus and be able to have a growing economy and not generate as much carbon pollution. So, yes we continue to see growth but at a lesser rate and we will break the nexus between economic growth and growing carbon pollution.
HOST: Ingrid from Kenmore, she says why have you decided to not tax petrol and exclude forestry when these are two main contributors to Australia's greenhouse emissions. If Australians can still drive their suburban four wheel drives and not have to pay the carbon tax on petrol and be compensated, where is the incentive to change behaviour?
PM: Well, the incentive is on the big polluters. It's around 500 big polluters that are paying the price. So, if you just think about it today they get to do something for absolutely nothing, pump carbon pollution into our atmosphere. From 1 July next year they'll pay, that's a powerful incentive for change on the big polluters. For households I had to make some decisions about the right shape of this scheme for our nation, we're a big country, we're a country where people live in big cities, many of them in outer suburbs. We've got big communities in regional Australia, no choice but to drive and so I decide we shouldn't put it on the petrol that households buy.
HOST: More of your email questions coming up. Let's just go to Ava from Yeronga, what is your question Ava?
CALLER: Hi, thank you Madonna. I've got a question - will the Government review the $150,000 family income test because $150,000 for two people working after tax isn't a lot of money these days, as it was a few years back-
HOST: Alright.
CALLER: (inaudible) it's not a lot of money.
HOST: Prime Minister?
PM: Look I understand people right up the income scale can feel cost of living pressures and find it hard to make everything add up, but I've still got to make the right choices. The reality is one in ten households in this country earns more than $150,000 a year so whilst those people can feel pressures, there are other Australians doing it tougher, which is why I brought my very traditional Labor values and Labor principles to the design of the household assistance package.
HOST: Are you saying one in ten households in Australia earn more than $150,000?
PM: That's right.
HOST: Essentially that's two teachers, a public servant and a teacher?
PM: Well, yes but there's a lot of people who are earning less than that. So our package is going to assist nine in ten households, and yes I understand that people who are earning $180,000, $200,000 can still feel cost of living pressures, but I've got to use government money where it's going to do the most work and so I've directed it to Australians who are doing it that big tougher. That's, you know, sort of Labor values, the Labor way.
HOST: Richard from Teneriffe what's your question?
CALLER: My question is - the money taxed under the carbon tax will it be fenced off in government accounts or will it go into consolidated revenue where it can be diverted off into other activities not related to carbon production?
PM: It will not be diverted off. We don't run government accounts generally on the basis of saying, well, you know, there are jam jars that we'll put one dollar into and another jam jar we'll put another dollar into, but you will always be able to see on the government's budget money coming in from big polluters paying the price of carbon pollution and where it's going and I can tell you exactly where it's going, it's going to support households. More than half of it will be used for that purpose. It's going to work with industry in the transition so we protect Australian jobs and it will go to fund things like clean energy sources for the future.
HOST: Thank you Richard. Back to the phones in just a moment, on the email John says the Greens plan to scrap the Australian coal industry in three years, does the Prime Minister agree the Greens are stupid to think that our buyers will stop using coal if we stop exporting it. Does she agree that they will just shift to other sources - India, China, Indonesia, Brazil, where the coal may not be so clean.
PM: It's completely stupid to say that our coal industry will close down, it will not close down. Coal has a great future-
HOST: -But that's what the Greens have said they want?
PM: Well they can say whatever they like, it's stupid. There's a big future for coal in this country and let's look at the evidence before our very eyes this week. Peabody Coal, big American coal company, works here in Australia and it is engaging the biggest ever takeover of an Australian coal company. Hard headed business people doing that after carbon pricing was announced because they know there's going to be good money in Australian coal, there's a great future for the coal industry.
HOST: Still on the international questions, Peter on the email and this is with China expected to pump out more perhaps as it grows over the ten years, has the modelling taken into account the extra global pollution to be created by other countries when they take up the slack caused by Australian jobs and industries being lost overseas?
PM: Look, we're certainly looking at what's happening around the rest of the world and I'm very happy to talk about all of the things that are happening around the rest of the world. Our Productivity Commission identified 1000 separate policies that other countries are putting in place to cut carbon pollution. But we've got a choice here too. We're one of the twenty biggest polluters on the planet, more pollution per head of population than any people in developed countries on earth. If we put one tonne less of carbon pollution into our atmosphere that's one tonne less. Well I want to put at least 160 million tonnes less.
HOST: Roslyn from Harvey Bay, your question?
CALLER: Good morning Julia, there's a lot on carbon tax. I'm actually changing the question - I'm a self funded retiree, I've worked all my life, I'm 67 and as you know we saw with global recessions-
HOST: -Alright but what's your question Roslyn?
CALLER: My question is what is provided for self funded retirees in all this package?
PM: I can certainly tell you that and self funded retirees will be helped in two ways, they will get a supplement that gives them the kind of additional assistance that pensioners will see and self funded retirees are often in the tax system, they pay some tax on money that they get from superannuation or perhaps investments and other sources, people will get a tax cut. So self funded retirees who have the Commonwealth Seniors Card have been catered for in this package. Please get onto the cleanenergyfuture.gov.au website, there's a household estimator there, you'll be able to type in your own details and it will show you what you will get.
HOST: Thank you Roslyn, that also answers Bill from Coorparoo's question. Greg says what is your personal prediction for the increase in the rate of the carbon tax from its current level in say ten years from now?
PM: Well it will go up and you can see some of those figures in what we put out on Sunday, so it will start at $23. At the end of the third year when we move to the emissions trading scheme it will be at $29 and it does keep going up, you'll see prices there modelled out til 2020, but as the carbon price goes up so does the amount of assistance provided to households.
HOST: Let's go to Stephanie from The Gap, Stephanie your question?
CALLER: Yes, hi. Look I was just wanting to make the comment that have you actually taken into account the psychological factor that the fear of the carbon tax alone has had a huge impact on consumer confidence. (inaudible) construction business and our phone just don't ring, we're down to one staff member.
HOST: Alright, Julia Gillard?
PM: Well certainly as Prime Minister and as a member of a government we've gone out of our way to support the construction industry during the hard days of the global financial crisis and global recession to keep people in jobs and working. I am very well aware as Prime Minister that this has been a divisive debate with a lot of fear generated, a lot of scare campaigns and with the facts on the table now, there's no reason for people to worry, they can just get the facts and work out what it means for them. I wanted to give businesses certainty, that's very important to confidence, and now I have.
HOST: Paul says the Government has put taxes on Australian export industries, why isn't there a carbon tax on goods that come from countries that don't have a carbon tax?
PM: Well we obviously are able to put taxation arrangements on people within Australia but let's just be clear about the magnitude of this. I was getting questions on another radio station, admittedly Madonna, on another radio station as was Wayne Swan about what does it mean for the price of a can of tomatoes made in Australia versus one from overseas? We're talking about less than half a per cent compared with the cost of getting that can of tomatoes here from overseas, this is very modest.
HOST: Alex and Joe ask a similar question; to what extent will the carbon tax reduce average global temperatures.
PM: Well this is a question that first put into the public debate I believe by Andrew Bolt and it's a question not capable of answer because it assumes other countries aren't acting. Other countries are acting. Emissions trading scheme across Europe, ten American states with an emissions trading scheme, Prime Minister Cameron in the UK, ambitious target for change, President Obama, ambitious target for change, India putting a tax on coal to fund clean energy, China in its five year plan with clean energy work as well. Even New Zealand's got an emissions trading scheme, so the rest of the world is acting.
HOST: Pam says data shows the Federal Government is one of Australia's largest and growing greenhouse gas emitters, what changes are in place to reduce government emissions or is the carbon reduction just a case of ‘do as I say, not as I do'?
PM: Carbon pollution is being addressed, the carbon pollution emitted by the 500 biggest polluters, so if you're a big polluter then you are in this scheme. Of course people in their own workplaces can make change to use less energy and people in Federal Government workplaces are doing that.
HOST: Please ask the Prime Minister, this is from Rachael, why she won't go to an election if she is so confident the carbon tax is the answer?
PM: We've got to get this done. We've been debating it for more than ten years now. Prime Minister Howard went to a federal election promising a price on carbon. I've got a lot of governing to do and a lot of decisions to make in the interests of this nation and -
HOST: But this is a bit different because you just looked down the barrel of the camera and said there will be no carbon tax under a government I run and we're here talking, you're here with me selling the your carbon tax.
PM: Absolutely, and in 2013 people will have lived under the system, direct experience, real experience, looked at what it means for pollution, looked at what it means for them and their families and then they will be able to decide. But Madonna, I think we've got to look at the right reason for all of this, I mean I saw Tony Abbott on TV last night saying, he's going to devote the rest of his political life to fighting the carbon tax, this is all for him, about the politics of the next election. For me, it's about the future of our country, that's why we're going to get this done.
HOST: Steve from Browns Plains - will the GST apply on top of the carbon tax?
PM: Well for the big polluters paying a price per tonne for carbon pollution, getting a permit to put up a tonne of carbon pollution, there's no GST on that. Yes, by the time you see flow through impacts into the price of goods, of course, the GST applies to the whole price of the good. But all of that is modelled in, in the less than one per cent increase in cost of living.
HOST: Clinton says what are you going to do if these 500 polluters pack up shop and go to another country?
PM: It won't happen. We have looked at all of this, we've worked with business, we've worked with industry to make sure we're protecting Australian jobs and let's just get a sense of how the scare campaign here has been so different from reality. Tony Abbott stood in Whyalla and said ‘this place will be wiped off the map'. Well, the people who make steel in Whyalla said they are satisfied with the way we've consulted with them and worked with them and we're devoting $300 million to keep, to deal with the effects of carbon pricing on steel. Tony Abbott had to climb down from that silly claim yesterday.
HOST: If the carbon tax modelling goes all wrong and Australia has to pay more across the board will you take the blame or blame government bureaucrats?
PM: Well, I'm relying on exactly the same bureaucracy, Treasury, the same experts who modelled the impact of the GST and got it right. So, I've got a high degree of confidence that that modelling is right.
HOST: And a final question, several people have asked, have you done an analysis on how many extra public servants you will need to administer this?
PM: Yes, we will have people in the Climate Change Authority and the like, this is a big change and of course we're going to have the right people doing the right jobs to make it work, that's the best thing we can do for the nation's future. I would ask Madonna, next time Tony Abbott's in here, you ask him how many thousands, tens of thousands of public servants is he going to employ to be out there picking their favourite polluter to give taxpayers money to?
HOST: Happy to do that in the next couple of days when Tony Abbott will do the same thing and take listeners calls here at 612 ABC Brisbane. Prime Minister, thank you for your time.
PM: Thank you Madonna.