HOST: Good morning, Prime Minister. Took you to your student days there, did it?
PM: Good morning. Well, the event did take me back to my student days in this sense, that the first major public speech I ever gave in was in the Bonython Hall. I was an elected student representative on the University Council at Adelaide University and I was invited to speak at a graduation ceremony. So, that was a big occasion for me many a long year ago, and it was great to be back there again last night.
HOST: Well, you came back there are 150 protestors saying ‘when are you going to act on gay marriage?' They said that if Don Dunstan was alive today, I've heard this phrase before, someone said often he'd be spinning in his grave, not turning in grave, because he was a person who wanted homosexuality to be recognised. He decriminalised it and they're saying well, as Prime Minister they're calling on you to give same-sex marriages legal status.
PM: Well, I have a different view. People are going to make their voices heard, including through turning up and peacefully having their say at occasions like last night. We live in a democracy and we want to hear people's voices, but I have a view about the Marriage Act -
HOST: -OK, well on that, I suppose you could say you could choose to act or not to act and in this case you've chosen not to act on the Marriage Act, but on Q&A the other night you said I had a choice, do I act or don't I act and I chose to act on climate change and go with this idea of a carbon tax. That echoes the phrase the cost of action is greater than the cost of inaction, I think I've heard that said by a lot of people with the UN. How much is this carbon tax going to cost the average person?
PM: Well, we haven't fixed a carbon price yet. We are taking this a step at a time so that we can explain every bit of it to the Australian people. Now-
HOST: -Well, you can explain it this morning, because on Q&A someone said ‘well, will it be a sliding scale?' For example, we know with our income tax that there's a sliding scale, so can we find out if it's a sliding scale or not?
PM: Look, I can certainly explain that to you, and I'm afraid the premise of your question isn't quite right.
This is a tax on big polluters. It's not individuals paying this tax, so the question of income tax scales doesn't matter - this is big polluters paying this tax.
At the moment they can put carbon pollution into the atmosphere for nothing. We will put a price on carbon pollution and that will change the way that businesses do things. They'll innovate and we will have a clean energy future with all of the jobs that come with that.
Now, it will have price impacts, because clearly if you put an extra impost on business by pricing carbon pollution - I've been upfront with people - there will be price impacts. We will use the revenue that the big polluters are paying to provide generous assistance to households, as well as to assist businesses make the transition to this clean energy future.
I want to make sure we're protecting Australian jobs. We do that by assisting industry to make the transition. We do that by making sure we've got a competitive, clean energy economy of the future and we get the new jobs of the future.
And the revenue will also be used for programs to tackle climate change, but the single biggest use of the revenue will be to assist households.
HOST: Prime Minister, Tony Abbott's been able to run a very successful scare campaign because I just asked you how much people would pay and you, sometimes you call it carbon tax, sometimes you call it a carbon price, it's a bit like a ghost. If you can't see how much you'll pay, isn't that why Tony Abbott's winning this argument, because he can rightly say be afraid, be very afraid, because we don't know what it is?
PM: Look, whatever we said and however much detail we had announced, and we will of course be announcing full details of the scheme. We'll be working through, we'll be explaining every bit to the Australian community. I wanted to explain this bit first, about how the pricing mechanism works -
HOST: -But the price is what people want to know about. They want to know how much they'll pay. Can you say, for example -
PM: -Look, can I just say this to you: even if the Government had gone out and announced every detail of this carbon pricing, even if we had done that, Tony Abbott would be running a scare campaign.
Now, let's not mince any words about this. Tony Abbott is not running a scare campaign because he says there's not enough information. He's running a scare campaign because he thinks it's in his political interests, and at the end of the day he doesn't care about climate change and he doesn't believe in the science, so I am not going to make Government announcements based on Tony Abbott's scare campaign. That will be a feature, a scare campaign from Tony Abbott will be a reliable feature of our world in the same way the sun coming up every morning is a reliable feature of our world. That'll happen.
What I'll do is get on with making responsible decisions for this nation's future, making sure we've got a clean energy economy and the jobs of the future and that's what carbon pricing is about.
HOST: It's very interesting that one in three Green voters in key seats at the last election would have supported Labor if it had not delayed introduction of the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, so, in fact, it really affected you badly in the last election and now you've got the situation where you're actually becoming unpopular because you're acting, but a lot of people are saying this is because you can't sell it. I mean, Kevin Rudd lost office because your Party said he'd lost touch with the electorate. Have you lost touch with the electorate?
PM: We are in the early days of this discussion with the Australian community and I understand when you start talking to the Australian community about big changes the nation needs to make that people become concerned and it can be easy to generate fear. But let's look at the past - this nation has been able to adapt in the past. When we brought tariff walls down people said ‘Gee, we wouldn't have any Australian industry anymore', and here we are in a more prosperous economy because we took those step, and it's only Labor -
HOST: -So you're saying people will be better off once the tax is in?
PM: Certainly we will be better off as a nation to have a clean energy economy. This is about the future prosperity of this nation.
The world is moving to a cleaner energy future. We are high emitters of carbon pollution per head of population. Indeed, we're the highest in the developed world, and we can't afford to wake up in 10 years' time with the world having moved to a clean energy future and we're limping along behind with a high carbon pollution economy.
We can't afford that. That's why it's right to move, it's right to act, why I believe in action and that is exactly what we're doing.
HOST: Just quickly on one other tax that we've heard a lot about, what's happened to the mining super profits tax? Now, Norway created a future fund to ensure its financial stability for centuries to come. Are you still going to go ahead and do this?
PM: Yes, we are going to legislate the Minerals Resource Rent Tax, which I agreed with Australia's biggest mining companies. It's been in an in-detail policy process where mining representatives have got to sit round a table with the Minister Martin Ferguson and that group's been led by John Argus, quite a famous Australian name who is famous for being a big person in the mining industry. They've been working through all of the details. That will feed into the legislation and the legislation will come to parliament, absolutely.
HOST: And will you put that money into a special fund for the future of Australia?
PM: We've announced how we're going to use that money and it's going into infrastructure. Mining is a great benefit, but it also puts pressure on infrastructure, so we will be funding infrastructure.
We will be doing what the Government needs to do to increase superannuation for Australians from 9 per cent to 12 per cent. It's about national savings and a better retirement future for working Australians.
And we'll be using that money to cut company tax rate. We want to have a balance in our economic growth, so we think it's important that that money is used to cut the company tax rate and particularly assist small business so we get balance in our economic development around the country.
HOST: Just quickly before we go to calls, Kevin Rudd said the sorry speech and signing of Kyoto were a couple of the key things that he saw as great achievements in the first few months in office. You've been there a year now, so what's your two great achievements?
PM: Well, firstly I'd say striking a National Health Reform Agreement. We need to make sure that we've got quality health services in the future. If we're going to have those health services we can't keep going on the way we are where State governments are asked to pick up the sharply growing cost of public hospitals. If you fast forward the clock that means the cost of hospitals would eat all of the revenue that comes to State governments, and none of them would have money for schools and police. We fixed that with the National Health Reform Agreement, so I think that that's a big achievement for this Government and it's a truly national agreement. Every State and Territory have signed up to it.
Second, we structurally separated Telstra. Now, that's a mouthful, but one of the big problems we've had in telecommunications in this country is that the business that owns all of the monopoly infrastructure has also been a retail business. We're going make sure that we've got genuine competition in telecommunications. That means better prices and better deals for Australians.
And if I can sneak in a third, I think successfully making sure that we've got a package to rebuild the nation and particularly Queensland after the recent devastating floods and cyclone. That's required me to win a hard argument about a flood levy and I've won it and that legislation is going through the parliament.
HOST: Well, let's see if you can win the hard argument over the carbon tax. We've had an SMS saying ‘I run a small business and when my costs go up I usually have to reluctantly pass on those costs to customers. How can Julia Gillard say that the big polluters will be the only ones paying the carbon tax?'. Derek from Adelaide.
CALLER: Hi, Prime Minister. You've obviously been briefed by the CSIRO, Bureau of Meteorology and others about the magnitude of the problem of climate change and the facts are the polar ice caps are melting, Greenland's melting, the Siberian permafrost's melting, the oceans are warming, etcetera etcetera. Now, I just think before we talk about the minutia of a carbon tax, you need to explain to the public, because they obviously don't know how serious the problem is.
HOST: OK, Derek.
PM: I think that's a really good point and in the speech I gave in Don Dunstan's honour last night I did explain the science, the science that comes to use from very reputable places like the CSIRO and climate change scientists around the world. We do face a future with rising temperatures. That will mean more extreme droughts, more bushfires, increased cyclone activity. It'll cut into jobs, because it'll cut into things like food production. In the Murray Darling there'll be less water around, less food production. It means it will cut into things like tourism. It'll bleach coral in Great Barrier Reef and 60,000 Australians are actually involved in businesses that rely on the Great Barrier Reef being there.
So, that's the future - the future of declining jobs as our climate changes, as well as being left behind as the rest of the world moves to a clean energy economy, and I'm going to be strongly making that point.
I believe in climate change. I believe it's induced by human activity. Tony Abbott doesn't care about climate change because he doesn't believe in it and he's made that very clear in recent days. When he's talking to people, when he's on talkback radio, he agrees with climate change denial. So, I'm for action - he's for inaction.
HOST: Prime Minister, just quickly on that one, the Independent Climate Change Commission you set up has got Tim Flannery at the head of it, but climate change deniers, in fact that's the name of their site, say that he's no expert in this area and maybe you should have had someone from the CSIRO?
PM: Tim Flannery is a well-known Australian and well known for his scientific expertise and he will be out there explaining the science to Australians-
HOST: -He hasn't been doing much in the last month, because we spoke to him about a month ago and I haven't seen him coming around trying to explain the carbon tax which he said was the only way forward in 2007.
PM: Well, you certainly will see him. His appointment has been made and he's got a very active program of events and public engagements, so you will see him.
But really, can I just say to you, off the climate change deniers website what we're going to get is climate change denial. Now, that might be where Tony Abbott gets his inspiration from and he might want to get his science off Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt. I'm going to get my science off the reputable, scientific agencies in this country and around the world and they are crystal clear: climate change is real and we need to respond.
HOST: Speaking of science, we did an interview this morning with Craig Knowles, the head of the MDBA and when he was asked about the science of the Murray Darling Basin, he said you put 12 scientists in a room, you get 12 different answers and that's why he wasn't going to go with the recommendations that they have a minimum flow down the Murray to keep the river alive.
PM: Well, what I think you'll see the Murray Darling Basin Authority doing is consulting -
HOST: -But how can you recognise the science in one area and then when it comes to the river appoint someone like Craig Knowles who says ‘look, put 12 scientists in a room and get 12 different answers.'
PM: Look, I obviously didn't hear that interview, but let's be clear. In every -
HOST: -It was on Four Corners as well. He said the same thing the other night on Four Corners.
PM: Well, I didn't see Four Corners, but can I just be clear with you, in every aspect of our daily life we accept science.
I mean, do you accept that smoking causes lung cancer and it's bad for people to smoke? I accept that and it's scientists that told us that.
Do you accept, as I do, that we shouldn't be running around in strong sunshine without any form of sun protection on? I accept that. I accept that because scientists explained to us that not having sun protection causes skin cancer.
HOST: Let's hope the scientists that are telling the head of the Murray Darling Basin they need 3,000-4,000 gigalitres at a minimum for a healthy river that they might listen to his words.
PM: Certainly, the river science will be taken into account, but what the Murray Darling Basin Authority is doing is working on the plan that will make sure when we're looking at the water in the River Murray that we've got good environmental outcomes; we've got good outcomes for food production' and we've got good outcomes for communities along the river.
We can have a win-win-win here and that is what we're aiming for.
HOST: Alright, Robert from (inaudible).
CALLER: Morning, Prime Minister. Welcome to Adelaide again.
PM: Thank you.
CALLER: My point to you is, well, two points - a statement, a couple of statements and a question to you.
It appears that successfully Tony Abbott and his Party, coalition Party, have been using the ALP for the last three and a half years as a punching bag to knock down every single policy that you put up to the Australian electorate, and I think you've got to take some of the blame for that because your selling credentials have been extremely mediocre and that's why the ETS failed and this is why the carbon tax is failing so miserably at the moment.
Should your Ministers be starting, and I mean every single Minister on your front bench, should they be starting to propel some good language, easy, simple language out to the Australian to tell us the pros - obviously, the pros in your favour - why we should have this carbon tax and knock the hell back down Tony Abbott's negative campaign, and might I say, I'll say to Mr Abbott, I'm not voting one way or the other on this issue; I'd just like to know the truth and the facts of the matter.
But I've looked at my electricity bill over the last six and a half years and it's been going up anyway. I just want some simple answers and I want to know from one Party or the other where Australians are going to be better off.
PM: Well, I can tell you very simply when Australians are going to be better off and how they're going to be better off. We will be better off if we price carbon. We will be better off if we act. We will be better off in terms of our environment and we will be better off in terms of our economy and the jobs of the future. We can't afford to be left behind.
Now, Mr Abbott will run his scare campaign, that's what Mr Abbott does, but let's just look at a parallel here. When I first announced the flood levy I was on talkback radio and people were saying to me ‘Australians hate this. You'll never get this through. This is a huge error. Your Government could be destroyed on this. How could anybody do something like this?' And here we are after patient explanation, and I think Australians have come to accept that it's the right thing to do to assist the people of Queensland, that the flood levy is struck in a fair way and it is going to go through the parliament.
Well, in the face of a fear campaign, and Mr Abbott ran a vicious fear campaign against the flood levy and he doesn't even bother talking about it anymore.
Now, we've got another vicious fear campaign, and patiently and methodically we will explain the benefits of making sure we act on climate change, and that means we've got to put a price on carbon that'll cut carbon pollution, that will give us clean energy jobs in the future.
HOST: [AUDIO BREAK] for your time this morning. We've had a couple of texts come in saying that, ‘how much will we pay? Why are we introducing something that China and the big polluters aren't?' SMS from Fred: big new tax, nothing will change with the world polluters, the cost of living will rise, but you'll go out on a huge pension.
PM: Well, I'm glad that people are raising those questions because there is, I think, some talk in the Australian community about what is the rest of the world doing.
The rest of the world is acting. We should not succumb to some image that somehow we are alone and we are the ones that are acting.
I can go through it with you very quickly. You've got 32 countries that have emissions trading schemes. We've got 10 US States that do as well. President Obama has announced an ambitious goal to create a clean energy economy in the United States. In China they're acting on climate change. They're shutting down a dirty coal fired power station, an inefficient power station, at the rate of one every one to two weeks and replacing them with more environmentally efficient power stations. India is taxing coal in order to generate a clean energy fund and they are going to start an energy trading credit scheme in April this year. The world is moving.
So there is a choice for us - do we stand still and risk being the ones who are left behind, or do we do what the environmental scientists are telling us to do, act on climate change, and do we use the mechanism that the economists are telling us is the most efficient, least-cost mechanism, and that's pricing carbon.HOST: Just very quickly, Prime Minister, when would you have the details available for people to understand them in more clarity?
PM: We'll be announcing further details of the scheme between now and the middle of the year and then we will have the legislation in parliament in the second six months of this year.
I wanted to be able to have the conversation with the Australian community about the mechanism, how we were going to get this done. I'm doing that right now, and then of course I will be talking to the Australian people about all of the further details.
But I do want to emphasise this is a tax on polluters. People will get generous household assistance.
I'm a Labor Prime Minister. That means my first consideration is always protecting Australian jobs. We will support industry in the transition and this is all about having the jobs of the future.
So, if you care about meeting the challenges of the future, if you care about the environment we're leaving, this nation's children and their children, and you want us to be a prosperous nation in the future, then this whole conversation can only end in one conclusion - and that is we've got to get on with the job and price carbon.
HOST: We'll, I'll let you get on with the job today of being Prime Minister. Thank you very much for your time this morning and hopefully we'll be able to continue that conversation when more details come forward. Thanks for your time, Julia Gillard.
PM: Terrific, thank you.