HOST: As you know the Prime Minister of Australia is Julia Gillard, hopefully the Prime Minister is on the line. Good morning.
PM: Good morning John.
HOST: How are you Prime Minister?
PM: I'm very well, I'm in South Australia and I've just launched the new Holden Cruze, so a very special honour and a brand spanking new motor vehicle.
HOST: Yes and good for Australia.
PM: Absolutely. To be manufacturing cars here is fantastic.
HOST: You bet it is. Now who is telling fibs and who isn't telling fibs?
PM: Well John, that's a pretty broad brush question, but if you're asking me to talk to you about the debate of the last few days, carbon pricing, I'm more than happy to.
In the 2007 election campaign and the 2010 election campaign Labor went to the election saying to the Australian people, climate change is real, humans are causing it, we've got to reduce carbon pollution and the best way of doing that is to have a market based emissions trading scheme, where you cap the amount of carbon pollution your economy can generate and you let a market mechanism sort out the price as people buy and sell permits and that's exactly where we're going to end up John.
HOST: But what about when you said this:
PM: There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.
You said it.
PM: Yes I did, I'm happy to acknowledge that John. I did say that and a carbon tax is a different way of pricing carbon, so I've always believed that a market mechanism is the best approach, you cap the amount of carbon pollution and you let the market sort out the price.
HOST: But it's still a tax.
PM: There is another way of doing it and that is the government to fix the price.
HOST: But it's still a tax.
PM: Look certainly John, I'm not trying to hide anything from people. If you price carbon -
HOST: When you said there would be no tax, that really wasn't the truth was it?
PM: Well if I can just finish, a carbon tax is a different way of pricing carbon, that's where the government strikes the price. So John I've always believed in a market based mechanism, I'm sitting in the parliament the Australian people voted for, I want to get to a market based mechanism, I've worked with others of good will and we've determined that the way to get there is to have a period of fixed pricing, which is like a tax and then get to the market based mechanism that I talked to the Australian people about in 2010. So I'm working with the parliament the Australian people voted for and yes I have made some compromises in order to act now, rather than just throw up my hands and say ‘let's not do anything'.
HOST: Does a compromise mean you changed your mind?
PM: It means I'm there working with the parliament that Australians voted for -
HOST: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
PM: Look John it's a lot like John Howard went to an election -
HOST: No, no, I don't want to talk about John Howard.
PM: Well it's a good analogy I think. John Howard went to an election promising to have a Goods and Services Tax, when he went to the parliament he needed to sit down with Meg Lees, the then Leader of the Democrats and work some issues through. I've taken a similar approach.
HOST: Yeah, but he went to an election saying that he was going to introduce a GST.
PM: And I went to the 2010 election saying -
HOST: That there would be no carbon tax.
PM: I went to the 2010 election says I wanted to price carbon through a market based mechanism and that is exactly where we'll get to and Labor went to the 2007 election saying we wanted to price carbon through a market based mechanism.
HOST: Yes, but you did say this:
PM: There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.
That's what you said.
PM: Yes I did John and working with this parliament I have agree that there will be a fixed price period before we get to a full market based pricing scheme. That is effectively like a tax, I'm happy to say that and I'm happy to say that I worked with the parliament the Australian people voted for. That's required some compromises, but the end point is exactly what I talked to the people about during the 2010 election campaign.
HOST: Did you hear what Tony Abbott had to say about the comments that you made? Just listen to this:
HOST: Is out Prime Minister a liar?
ABBOTT: Ah, I think the short answer is yes. I don't think there's any other way word to use.
Pretty damning statement, isn't it?
PM: Well, you know Tony Abbott can make any statement he likes, people would also remember when he went to an election giving a rock solid, iron clad guarantee that the Medicare safety net he was in charge of as Health Minister wouldn't change, and immediately after the election it did change and he basically said ‘well, I didn't keep my word before the election', so we've seen Tony Abbott do that. John I -
HOST: Can I just say this to you, does that mean the Australian public has got to accept the fact that all out leaders are likely to lie?
PM: No, absolutely not. People should look -
HOST: Well you did and now you're saying Tony Abbott did and you're the leaders.
PM: Well John, if I can just answer the question. There's no doubt Tony Abbott went to an election saying he wouldn't change the Medicare safety net, he gave a rock solid, iron clad guarantee and then he changed his mind and broke his word. He's admitted that on the public record, so that's part of our past. For the debate we are talking about now, the carbon pricing debate, I said to the Australian people we have to deal with climate change, we have to price carbon. I want to create a market based mechanism to do that and that's exactly what I'm doing John.
HOST: OK, but you also said, this is what you said:
PM: There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.
And there is.
PM: And John it is absolutely true, working with this Parliament in order to get to what I promised the Australian people I believed in, that is a market based mechanism to price carbon, we will have a fixed price that works effectively like a tax, that's a compromise I've made to ensure we act in this parliament, working with the parliament the Australian people voted for.
HOST: The Greens and the Independents obviously are leaning on you very heavily.
PM: It's not a question of that John, it's a question of the right thing to do. I've got two choices, I could throw up my hands and say ‘I'm not going to get anything done', or I could seize the opportunities of this parliament and start creating the clean energy future this country needs. Well I'm for action, I'm for creating that clean energy future, I want to make sure Australia doesn't get left behind and young Australians have the jobs of the future. That's what I'm doing John.
HOST: Nobody would have any argument with that, it's how it came about that the people who are concerned are concerned about. I mean obviously the Independents and the Greens did lean on you.
PM: I'm working with the parliament the Australian people voted for, it's a parliament in which to get proposals through both the House of Representatives and Senate I need to work with others. What I do as Prime Minister is I work out what's the right thing to do, the right thing to do is to price carbon, the right thing to do is to act now. I've negotiated on the how question, so we will have a fixed price period and then get to what I've always believed was the best mechanism, a market based mechanism for pricing carbon.
HOST: Again let me say that I have no objection to any of that and I think many Australians feel precisely as I feel, but can you tell me how much will the carbon price reduce pollution compared to other world powers? Are we going to be doing better?
PM: Well my view is Australia shouldn't lead the world in this, but we shouldn't be left behind either. Other economies and countries are moving, 32 of them have got an emissions trading scheme, 10 US states do, so we can't afford to be left behind. We are big emitters of carbon pollution by world standards; more pollution emitted per head of population that even the Americans. That means we've got a lot of work to do to transform our economy for a cleaner energy future and that's why it's smart for us to get started and get this done.
HOST: OK, but what difference is it going to make if the Chinese do absolutely nothing and that's their intention?
PM: Well China is doing a number of things to battle climate change, but my point John is that we, as Australia, need to look to our own national interest and say what's best for us is to have a cleaner energy economy, that's what will give us the jobs for the future.
HOST: Some of the media's heavy hitters, in print I mean, are predicting a push from Greg Combet. Is it time to tread carefully and carry a big stick do you think?
PM: Oh no, all of that was a little bit of a silly flurry on the weekend. Julie Bishop was the Deputy Leader of the Opposition was at a function that Bob Hawke was at and we all knew she was out trying to sell a story about all of this. I had breakfast with Bob Hawke in Sydney on Saturday and we were laughing about it.
HOST: Well that's good, but you can't blame him for wanting to stir up a bit of trouble, don't you all do that, all politicians?
PM: Julie Bishop and Tony Abbott have been at each other's throats and they're very deeply divided and I think as a result she probably thought it was politically clever to try and distract from the fact they've been at war about a very important series of issues, including I think they're at war internally now about carbon pricing because many of them do believe in putting a price on carbon.
HOST: You've got to remember also that the Kevin Rudd rumour was a silly flurry too and where's Kevin?
PM: John, you know, I'm not going to engage in any of that sort of analysis of the past, as for Bob Hawke having a chat at a function in Perth and Julie Bishop trying to sell a story out of it, Bob and I were literally laughing about it Saturday morning.
HOST: Nasty business politics, isn't it?
PM: Well it's a great business if you care about the nation's future and you come into the parliament wanting to make a change and wanting to make a difference. I came into the parliament to make us a nation of opportunity; I came into the parliament to make sure we could truly say to each other that we were giving every Australian child a chance at a good life. Part of that's having a strong economy, to do that we've got to have a clean energy economy, so if you come into politics to create and make a different, it's a fantastic business. Some people come into it just to destroy and wreck, that's Tony Abbott's mindset, it's not mine.
HOST: I don't think Tony Abbott is wanting to destroy and wreck, why would he want to do that, it wouldn't be to his benefit would it?
PM: Name me one thing you know he's in favour of? He's against carbon pricing, he's against the flood levy, he's against the National Broadband Network, he's against health reform, he's against education reform. Name me one thing you know he's in favour of?
HOST: Well I better ring him up and ask him.
PM: I'll be intrigued by the answer John, because I haven't heard one.
HOST: Alright, we'll I'll ring him immediately. We'll try and get him on the phone immediately and hopefully someone will certainly tell you what he has to say, but I will ask him that very simple question, what are you in favour of?
PM: I sit across a dispatch box from him every day in question time and he's never put a positive policy forward and indeed many of his backbench are very critical about his lack of positive policies. So if you can get an answer John you'll be breaking national news, because no one knows what he's in favour of.
HOST: Oh, I'm good at that.
PM: You are good at that, I'll agree.
HOST: Nice to talk to you Prime Minister, thank you very much for your time, as usual.
PM: Thanks John, bye bye.