Melbourne
HOST: On the line is the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard. Prime Minister, good morning.
PM: Good morning, Neil.
HOST: Would seem our World Cup bid is in a bit of trouble. What do you think?
PM: Well, we're waiting for that result anxiously, which we will get early morning Friday our time. Mark Arbib, our Minister for Sport, is over there. The Governor General will be there, representing Australia, and we are in there with a great bid, so we're going to keep pushing on, Neil, and keep advocating our bid.
HOST: But have you heard of the finance report which puts us a long last-
PM: -I have heard-
HOST: -in terms of, yeah, sorry.
PM: I have heard of that report, Neil, and it's missed a very important factor, and that very important factor is, of course, we are in the Asian region, and by 2022 75 per cent of the world's population is going to be in our region, and for the future of football, for this to be truly a world sport as they want it to be, they want to see growth in Asia, they want to see more people watching it, more people playing it, more people caring about it, which is why Australia is well placed to help with that by having the World Cup in the Asian region in 2022.
HOST: Did I hear right? You just called it football.
PM: I have been calling football.
HOST: So what does Footscray play?
PM: The Dogs play Aussie Rules, Neil.
HOST: Alright, a few other things. John Brumby, your mate, your former boss, took a belting at the weekend. Have you got a job for him?
PM: Well, John Brumby's got a job, being the Member for Broadmeadows. We are close mates. I did work for John as his chief of staff. I believe he's been a fantastic Premier of this State, and-
HOST: -But seriously, I mean, surely you could fit him into your team. It's not so good John Brumby couldn't get a job in a ministry, is it?
PM: John Brumby's got a job, Neil, as the Member for Broadmeadows.
HOST: He's not going to be happy with that for too long. You know he's a political animal, he's politically focussed. It's his life, apart from his family, politics, and he's a very good operator. Don't you think you could say, well, 'what about a safe seat?' Kelvin Thompson's had enough. Get him into a safe seat and get him into the Cabinet.
PM: Neil, it's not for me to get on radio and speculate about what John Brumby should do. I think John Brumby's the man who'll make his own plans, and as I understand his plans, and he's been pretty clear about them, he will be there as the Member for Broadmeadows. He loves that area. He loves representing it. He'll continue to do that well, and I believe he's been a great Premier of this State.
HOST: So you haven't said to him 'if you'd like to move on, there's a job'?
PM: No, I haven't, Neil.
HOST: OK. Nuclear power - a number of your backbenchers are pushing for an inquiry into it. Should it be debated, or do you rule it out unequivocally?
PM: Labor Party's got a very clear policy, here, and it's a really long-standing policy of opposition to nuclear power.
Now, we will have our national conference at the end of next year. I want the Labor Party to be a Party of debate and a Party of ideas, so if people come to national conference saying 'I've got something to say', then I want them to have their say at national conference.
In this area of policy, Neil, I'd have to say anybody who's arguing to overturn our long-standing policy is setting themselves up for a pretty tough argument, but I'm not going to be there saying to people 'don't come and put your view.' We're a Party of ideas. It's good to have debates, and we'll have a few at national conference.
HOST: So what would your vote be - pro or anti nuclear power?
PM: Look, in this country, as we look where we are today, nuclear power doesn't stack up as an economically efficient source of power for our nation. We're in a different situation from many nations that need nuclear power. We've got abundant sources of renewable energy.
HOST: Sorry, a callers just rung and said you talk about soccer and Asia and the World Cup. Aren't Japan and Korea a part of Asia as well?
PM: Yes, of course, but the penetration, particularly, that FIFA is looking for is into China, into the growth regions of the world.
HOST: OK, so, nuclear power - unlikely in Australia?
PM: Well, I don't think is stacks up here economically, Neil. That's been my view for a long period of time. We are very focussed on record investments in solar and renewable technologies. We've got abundant energy from those sources, but I understand people join the Labor Party because they're passionate about the future of the country. That means that we'll have a lot of debates at national conference. I think that's a good thing.
HOST: Yesterday, you became the first Prime Minister in 15 years to address the ACTU executive. It's reported you sneaked out the back door afterwards. Is that right?
PM: I walked in the front door and I did go through the basement to get into the car on the way out. I went to speak to the ACTU national executive. I wasn't so much there to speak to a few reporters who were loitering outside.
So, Neil, I did go to speak to the ACTU executive. I think that's a good thing to be doing. The trade union movement's been important to this country in the past. It will be important to this country in the future, so I went there to share my views.
HOST: Did you promise to work more closely with them?
PM: Labor and unions have a close, ongoing relationship. If you go back 100 years, we, obviously, came out of the same impulse-
HOST: -Well, as I recall, the Labor Party was formed by the union movement to be its political arm, but that's a long time ago, but did you promise to work more closely with them?
PM: Look, I didn't need to, Neil, because people who know me and have dealt with me, whether it's been as Prime Minister or as Deputy Prime Minister or indeed the years I was in the Labor Party before that know I'm someone who's very respectful of the role of the trade union movement and always happy to talk issues through.
That doesn't mean we'll always agree. I've had some historic disagreements with the trade union movement. People would remember, of course, our disagreements over transparency in schooling and the My School website. People would remember me going to an ACTU congress where people were wearing protest t-shirts because they didn't agree with what I had to say-
HOST: -Well, I think that's part of the point. This was a bit of a peace meeting. Is it true you offered them or suggested to them a greater involvement in policy making and decision making?
PM: Neil, I didn't say anything yesterday that I wouldn't have said the day before or the week before that or the month before that, which is I am someone who is very respectful of the role of trade unions. I believe we share an impulse, which is to look for fairness and decency for Australians in their workplaces and beyond. I'm always therefore happy to have a conversation.
Does that mean we're going to agree on everything? No, it doesn't, and my abiding interest will always be the national interest. When I've disagreed with the trade unions I've disagreed because I've taken a different view of what best serves the national interest.
I'll continue to do that, but I'll continue to have respectful conversations with the trade union movement - and with others. I go and meet with a lot of groups, Neil.
HOST: So, do they have any greater say in government than the employer groups?
PM: The trade union movement obviously has a say on matters for our society, as does the Australian Industry Group, the Australian-
HOST: -Yeah, but have they got a louder voice? Have they got a louder voice?
PM: No, it's not a question of louder voices, Neil. My door is open-
HOST: -Hang on, they think it is. They say 'we put a pile of the money into your campaign', and there was some, you're right, there some people who were a bit, sort of, equivocal about supporting you last time, in the movement. They've pulled, in fact, some pulled out, but they've put a pile of money into your campaign, and they say 'well, we deserve a louder voice.'
Did they argue to you yesterday that the workplace laws need amending?
PM: Yes, they did, and that's an argument that I've been having, or discussion with the trade union movement, since the Fair Work Act, and there's a number of things we simply don't agree on, so there was nothing new from that, Neil-
HOST: -So you won't, you haven't agreed to their, they want improved rights, described bargaining, union official (inaudible). You haven't agreed to any of that?
PM: Of course not, Neil. Neil, let's just take one step back and analyse the situation, and the situation is this: it is not a question for me, as Prime Minister, about loud voices. I don't care who's selling. What I care about is the quality of the input and the quality of the ideas, and if I see a good idea in the national interest come from the trade union movement, then I'll respond to it. If it comes from an employer group, I'll respond to it. If it comes from an Australian walking down Watton Street, Werribee, in my electorate, I'll respond to it.
I am not someone who is going to respond to loud voices. I'm going to respond to good ideas. I certainly used words to that effect yesterday, where I talked about good ideas for the nation's future. That's my perspective as Prime Minister.
HOST: Do you want encourage people to join unions?
PM: I've always believed that it's good for people to be in trade unions. I fundamentally believe, Neil, that we are strengthened by being members of a team. However strong and as smart we are as individuals, we are strengthened by being members of a team. I bring that approach to working as a team with my Labor colleagues. In workplaces, people can bring that approach by joining with their workmates and joining their trade union is one way of doing that.
HOST: A number of finance nerds and a few people publically have been in my ear - I'm thinking particularly of David Koch at Sunrise - about setting up a prosperity fund. Now, that's also been raised by the Future Fund and by the Reserve Bank bosses. Do we need a prosperity fund that takes the money we're rolling in at the moment, in a sense, with our resources boom, and puts it aside for the future?
PM: Well, we do have some finds which we've already set up which do just that. For example, our Health and Hospitals Fund which has money that's investing in the infrastructure we'll need for health and hospitals for the future. Our Education Investment Fund-
HOST: -So do we need to take it further?
PM: Well, what I think we need to do is we need to harness some of the new wealth that will be generated by resources boom mark II, and make sure that it makes a long-term difference to our prosperity. We have determined to do that by making sure we're using that new wealth to invest in things like lowering company tax so we see balanced growth across the economy, particularly lowering tax rates on small business to help them-
HOST: -So you'll do that rather than, sort of, put it aside for the future?
PM: Look, it's not an either-or proposition. The resources boom is going to be with us for a long time, Neil. That's my prediction. What we are doing now is harnessing revenue through the Minerals Resource Rent Tax. It's our policy to use that to fuel balanced growth across the economy: less company tax; good tax breaks for small business; investing in infrastructure; and investing in national savings in the form of superannuation - good for individuals, better retirement incomes, good for the public purse, people have got more super, and of course good for national savings as well.
HOST: OK, Ted Baillieu's pretty sceptical about the health deal. Do you think you can convince him to sign up?
PM: Well, Victoria has signed up to the health deal, and the health deal means, for Victoria, things like-
HOST: -So he can't get out of it? He says he's going to get it and look at it and re-assess it.
PM: As I understand, what Premier Baillieu is saying is he wants to look at the details, and I say that's good, because when he looks at those details what he will find is that there are important benefits for Victorians-
HOST: -But if he's not happy with it, can he get out of it, or is he stuck with it?
PM: Well, Victoria has signed the health deal. Obviously, Premier Baillieu will be there, making his own decisions, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth, but-
HOST: -No, but as far as you're concerned, is Victoria unequivocally, inescapably locked in to the health deal?
PM: Victoria has signed the health deal. I do expect States to honour the commitments that they have made, but beyond honouring a signature on a document, there are great reasons for Victoria to be in this health deal and stay in this health deal: reasons like 444 more hospital beds; reasons like almost $4 billion new in growth fund for health-
HOST: -But can Victoria opt out?
PM: -to the end of the decade-
HOST: -Is Victoria able to opt out?
PM: Well, there aren't opt out clauses, Neil, but I think you would understand that arrangements between governments partly rely on written documents and they partly rely on political understandings and honourable treatment between leaders, so Premier Baillieu says he's going to look at the issue. I certainly believe that's appropriate. He's a new Premier. He'd want to be fully briefed. He'd want to understand all of the details, and when he does understand all of the details, I think it will be very clear to him this is a good deal for Victoria, and one thing I would say-
HOST: -Yeah, but the point is if he doesn't, and he's certainly being sceptical at the moment, are you saying it'd be dishonourable to try and break it?
PM: Well, I think it would not be in the interests of Victoria, and of course there is a signed agreement, but I'm not going to characterise Premier Baillieu's conduct in any way in this interview, Neil. He's a new Premier. He says, responsibly, he wants to get himself fully briefed. I absolutely understand that, and I am confident when he gets himself fully briefed he will say to himself 'this is an important arrangement for Victoria', and the reason he will say that, Neil, is because if you fast-forward the clock on how much hospitals cost, if you look down the timetable and say 'what will be happening in 10 or 20 years?', funding hospitals the way we do now will cost State Governments more than they earn in revenue from all sources. That's not sustainable. That's why we need change.
HOST: Just finally and quickly, how do you assess your Government's performance since the election - points out of 10?
PM: Look, I don't think Government's as easy as points out of 10. What I wanted to do between the election and the end of the year is show to Australians that this Parliament could work - and it is working and delivering important reforms-
HOST: -But you must be very frustrated, dealing with all these whackos and fringe dwellers?
PM: Well, I'm not going to adopt that terminology and I'm going to point to the scoreboard, Neil - more than 50 pieces of legislation dealt with in the Parliament, including huge reforms like reforming telecommunications and laying the way for the National Broadband Network.
I wanted to leave this year having shown Australians this Parliament can work, and it is working, and we can deliver good, stable Government, making a difference for families - and we are.
HOST: Finally, are you going to have a holiday?
PM: Yes, I am.
HOST: OK, thank you very much. The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard.