STANLEY: Good morning to you, Prime Minister.
PM: Good morning. Thanks for having me on the program.
ALOISI: Prime Minister, is there a possibility that John Brumby could put a kybosh on your plan?
PM: Well, Premier Brumby has expressed his views about the Victorian health system. I think at various stages he's said that they have the best health system in the country. I'm not sure that's entirely true - if you look at the figures contained in the Australian hospitals report, for example.
But, you know something? The key thing is that working families, pensioners, carers, right across Australia are crying out for reform. They know the current system's not working. They want fundamental change. We intend to deliver that, and we intend to deliver growth in the system as well - more hospital beds, more doctors, more nurses as well, but what Premier Brumby is saying is 'just give us another blank cheque to the states and we'll see you in the morning.'
Well, frankly, that's the system that's operated for a long time. It hasn't worked. Our approach is quite different, which is the current system's not working. We need to fix it to get rid of duplication, waste, overlap and then put money in to grow the system - more hospital beds, more doctors, more nurses.
ALOISI: He's standing firm, though. He says he's not going to budge. He is not going to support this plan. I mean, will that-
PM: -How many premiers conferences have you watched over the years?
ALOISI: Yeah, well, exactly - it'll be an interesting one this week.
PM: Look, I won't predict the outcome for next Monday, but my job as Prime Minister is to put forward a clear plan, which we call a National Health and Hospitals Network - funded nationally, run locally, with the Australian Government for the first time being the dominant funders of the public hospital system of Australia to deliver more hospital beds, more doctors, more nurses. That's our plan.
Mr Brumby and some others perhaps are saying 'actually, the current system's working OK, just give the states another cheque without any reform'. We can't accept that, because it's not the right way to get rid of the waste in the system now through duplication and overlap, and not the right way to properly invest the money we need for more health services as well.
STANLEY: He's saying an absolute 'no', it seems, to your plan - publically, anyway. You've always talked about cooperative federalism. How much flexibility have you got? Is that document you've given the premiers your final offer, or have you got some wriggle room there?
PM: Well, what we've done six weeks ago at the National Press Club is put forward our plan, which is the funding, the structure, the system that we believe will work for the future: a new National Health and Hospitals Network, funded nationally and run locally.
In the last six weeks we've also put out how we would grow the funding in the system. That is, the extra funding for 6,500 doctors across the country; the extra funding for bringing about changes in accident and emergency; extra funding for dealing with challenges in elective surgery; extra funding for dealing with cancer; extra funding for dealing with diabetes - these are all consolidated in the final document we put to the states two days ago. They'll work their way through that. I'm sure there'll be a whole lot of argy-bargy in the room, but you know, we think we've got our basic position about right on this and I would appeal to all of them, all of the premiers and chief ministers, if we want better health and better hospital services for Australians, to get on board with this.
We're still working through bits and pieces of this. They're on the phone - I spoke with Premier Kristina Keneally the other night and I was speaking with others as well. We'll work through it systematically, but I'm absolutely determined that we must deliver this for Australia's future.
ALOISI: If you don't get agreement at the meeting on Monday, will you go to a referendum or do you have a timeframe? Will you allow it to lag or do you have a specific time in your mind, 'that's it, that's the deadline, the referendum will be on unless you agree to this'?
PM: I couldn't have been clearer about this, both prior to the last election and since. That is, I want to cooperatively reach a reform plan with the states and territories on the future of the health and hospital system. Plan's out six weeks ago, six weeks of negotiations, here's how we'll grow the system, and the growth that we'll take onto our shoulders, that's the Commonwealth as opposed to the states: $15 billion worth of additional expenditure from the Commonwealth over the next decade, taking that burden off the states, who need to dedicate more of their funds to things like transport infrastructure and other key needs in their various states.
But I've always said if we can't get there we'd have to seek a further mandate from the people.
ALOISI: But is there a deadline on that?
PM: Well, I've said that we would seek to do so, I said this prior to the last election, I said we'd do so by the next election. My position hasn't changed on that. It's been the same for the last two, two and half years, and that's why I would prefer to get there cooperatively, but let me be very clear - if we can't get there cooperatively, then we need to seek a further mandate from the people.
We can't just defer this to the never-never. People are crying out for reform now. In the last few days I've been in places like Gosford, like Wyong, like Port Macquarie, like Lismore. Right down the coast people are saying to me in the streets the time for change is now. Our health and hospital system's not working properly. It needs some fundamental surgery and it needs further funding for growth - hospital beds, doctors and nurses.
STANLEY: You understand history, though. If you've got John Brumby campaigning against a referendum in Victoria, if you've got the Opposition perhaps at best ambivalent, maybe actively opposing it in the context of an election campaign, how could you possibly get it up when so few referendums on often motherhood issues don't get up?
PM: This is ultimately a decision for the Australian people. I said prior to the last election 'here is my way of approaching the deep crisis in our health and hospital system. This is the way I'm going to do it - devise a cooperative plan on the basis of 18 months of work by a hospital reform commission headed by Christine Bennett, formerly of Westmead here in Sydney. They did their work. We then road tested this with six months of consultations with more than 100 hospitals across the country. I did about 25 of them myself, sitting down for three hours at a stretch with doctors and nurses road testing the recommendations.
But, you know something? It's ultimately for the Australian people to decide if we can't do this cooperatively. We've put out best foot forward. We've come up with a very thorough, well-costed, well planned document backed by so many people across the country, and people out there in regional Australia in particular know the need for change, but ultimately it's a matter for the people.
STANLEY: But what to do you say to those who say that this is really a process about getting a referendum that you can't win so you can way 'well, I've tried, so I've fulfilled my election promise and I'll move on to something else'?
PM: You know something? I am so deeply passionate about the need to fix this system. If you've been through as many hospitals as I have been through in the last year or so and spoken to as many patients as I have spoken to, and spoken to as many hard-working doctors and nurses who are keeping the current system functioning but still with a real problem in terms of the resources they've got, we've got to throw everything at it. That's what I'm doing.
But, you know something? You can't force people to agree. Australia's not that sort of country. What you can do is say 'here's the best way forward. This is what the people want. Here's a plan for the future for more hospital beds, more doctors, more nurses. Are you going to come with us cooperatively or not?' Then, if they don't, then you consult the people.
That is what's humanly possible, but that is the approach that we've put from the beginning.
ALOISI: On another issue, can I draw your attention to the front page of the paper today, which has probably the most-
PM: -Which paper would that be?
ALOISI: It would be the Telegraph. Probably not the most flattering photo, but are you a tough boss? Are you too hard to work for, as what the headline says? Is that the case?
PM: I reckon, one of my staff was saying this to me this morning, that in politics, as probably goes for whichever side of politics you're on, a staff working year is probably like a dog year. That is, it's probably worth about seven years in normal life, so folks stay with me for three or four years, that's probably 28 or 30 years or more in actual time.
Looks, it's a tough environment. People get the opportunity to travel to Canberra, to live there, to stay there-
ALOISI: -Be very careful. I come from Canberra.
PM: -from Sydney and Melbourne, and some of them are not entirely attracted by the Canberra lifestyle. That's a matter for them, of course, but they are separated from family, they go to Canberra, and sometimes it actually has an impact on their lives, but it's a tough job. People come in and out of political offices. You're experienced journalists, you know what happens - people come, they stay for a period, they go. My senior staff have been with me for a long time, but we also exchange staff with other offices.
STANLEY: When was the last person that left your staff? Do you remember?
PM: Oh, probably, well, actually, there was a fellow working for me in one of the media areas who, I hate to reveal this, you know, live on national radio - he went to work for the Treasurer's office, so that was actually walking around the corner, and can I also reveal to you that someone from the Treasurer's office came to work in my office some time ago. I presume they are buried in those statistics.
STANLEY: Well, I'm reading Steve Lewis. He says some nice things about you, but then says you're an uncompromising boss, rarely praise staff, and around Canberra there are all sorts of ex-Rudd staffers prepared to recount tales of woe.
PM: Well, you know something, the business of working in politics and working in national political life is a tough, tough business. People expect you to work hard. They expect you to try and do your absolute best for the country.
STANLEY: But are you tough on them? Do you turn up in foul moods at meetings with bureaucrats?
PM: I think the key thing is always to be very clear about what the country expects of you. For example, working the reform plan on health and hospitals - I make no apology whatsoever for making sure that we get that plan done, delivered, out and considered by the Australian people six weeks ago. Did we have to burn the midnight oil for weeks and months in order to do that? Yes. Do you think your listeners this morning are saying 'oh, rats, those public servants and advisers had to work until 10 o'clock at night'? No, actually they want to have their hospitals fixed. They want to have their emergency departments fixed. They want to have their elective surgery done on time.
ALOISI: I think the other criticism has been that they burn the midnight oil all the time.
PM: Well, as I said, it's tough life, being in national political life. As you know, also, in jobs in journalism you have turnover as well because you work really odd shifts as well.
STANLEY: So, you're not Jekyll and Hyde? We're not talking to-
ALOISI: -We're not talking to, which one is it? Jekyll?
PM: Well, I think it'd be a good question to ask your average, for example, News Limited bureau chief in Canberra what the turnover is in your average news bureau in Canberra. It's a tough life. People often have to relocate, there are crazy hours, it's very intense, people on the phone wanting x, y and z done within a short period of time, but I go back to the simple fact - we were elected by the Australian people to do a job. One of them, right now, is very big, on health and hospitals. That means burning the midnight oil, getting it done and sell it as hard as you can and that's the approach we take as a Government.
ALOISI: Alright, Prime Minister. Thanks for coming in this morning.
PM: Thanks for having me on your program.