O'BRIEN: Kevin Rudd, Malcolm Turnbull accused you today of an outburst of contrived indignation in response to Wilson Tuckey to distract attention from the comprehensive failure of your border protection policies. If you regard your border protection policies as a success, what is your measure of success?
PM: Well the first thing Kerry is to ensure that we've got the effective interdiction of vessels that are seeking to bring asylum seekers from various parts of the world- that they are properly processed through our mandatory detention centre on Christmas Island. And those who are not valid asylum seekers sent straight back home, and those who are determined to be asylum seekers with legitimate refugee claims are then appropriately resettled through the resettlement processes. But can I just add one point. It then becomes a question of standing back and looking at how we're progressing this against some historical benchmarks as well. And I just say this - the period of the Howard government, nearly 250 boats arrived on our shores bringing about 15,000 or almost 15,000 asylum seekers.
The two years that we've been in Government we've had 37 or 39 boats arrive with about 1700 or 1800 people. This has been a problem in the past, it's a problem today - it'll be a problem in the future. The key is to have a balanced policy, one which is both tough but humane. That's our approach and we'll stick to it.
O'BRIEN: Ok, so success for you is keeping those asylum seekers off Australian shores? It's not so much about keeping them away from Christmas Island; it's about keeping them off Australia's shores.
PM: It's called an orderly migration program and when you're dealing with questions of asylum seekers, having an orderly process there which deals with humanitarian considerations, and our obligations under the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. If you extend it out, it's having effective arrangements with so-called transit countries, like Malaysia and Indonesia. Effective also engagement with sources countries, in this case Iraq, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka.You see, if you are dealing with this effectively, it is the entire, shall I say, spectrum form source country, transit country, people on the high seas, as well as then, proper processing arrangements and dealing with asylum seekers if they had established to have that status. And if they're not, they are illegal immigrants seeking to come here for economic reasons and they are sent back home. So you ask what success is, it's having effective measures at each stage along the way.
O'BRIEN: You might not like the way he said it, but do you have to accept that Wilson Tuckey has a point, that there is a risk from time to time that a terrorist organisation may well be tempted to use the asylum seeker process to put a terrorist or terrorists into Australia?
PM: Kerry, the reason why this Government and its predecessor has insisted on mandatory health checks, mandatory security checks and mandatory identity checks on people coming to the country as asylum seekers is precisely to obtain confidence about their ultimate security status. In the past that's been the case, the last two years that's been the case and it will be the case into the future. You know as well as I do that what Mr Tuckey - backed by Mr Turnbull - was up to today was throwing out an entirely new scare campaign. A scare campaign not just about asylum seekers, which the Liberals are again hauling up to flagpole, but a specific scare campaign linking asylum seekers to an influx of terrorists into the country.Our policy is clear-cut. It's balanced. It is about ensuring that we have a tough, hardline approach to people smuggling, but a fair and humane approach when it comes to the processing of asylum seekers. We believe we've got that balance right.
O'BRIEN: Mr Turnbull quoted Julia Gillard back at you today, from her days as shadow immigration minister with her catchcry: "Another boat, another failure." Why doesn't that apply to you right now? Two boats in two days - Ashmore Island, Christmas Island, and the asylum seekers on the Oceanic Viking still trying to land in an Indonesian port and possibly still having to stay on the boat for another two days.
PM: On the latter point first, our discussions with the Indonesians of course have enabled Indonesians to make their own conclusions about which is the appropriate port for that particular vessel to arrive at. That's a matter for them. And you know as well as I do that the circumstances surrounding it have been to do with the particular humanitarian concerns associated with that vessel. More broadly on your point about numbers, can I just say this: let's put this into a global and historical context for Australia. First of all, worldwide we have had in the early part of the 2000s, we've had a reduction, significantly, massively, in the number of Iraqi, Afghan and Sri Lankans seeking asylum seekers all around the world. Falls by 50, 60, 70 per cent, as conditions in those countries, in part and in some cases temporarily, stabilised.
Then what you've had in the period since 2005, '06, '07, '08 is, in fact, a reversal of those security circumstances. We've seen the war break out for example in Sri Lanka, the end of the peace process there. You've seen of course the security situation deteriorate in Afghanistan, and also continuing concerns in various parts of Iraq. So what have we seen in that period of time? All the outflow of asylum seekers from those countries again go up by 50, 100, 150 per cent in the last several years. These are global factors. Our national challenge is to deal with this systematically, and we have done so in a coherent policy, which again maintains the balance between hardline on people smugglers, and at the same time humane and fair ,in the processing of asylum seekers, without using a fear campaign based on asylum seekers which the Liberal Party led, I say, by a failing leader, is seeking to deploy in the Australian political debate.
O'BRIEN: You talked this week of a new level of cooperation now needed with Indonesia over this issue. If your border protection policies are working, why do you need a new level of cooperation with Indonesia- unless it's because you fear that your own attempts to deal with the flow of asylum seekers is breaking down?
PM: Well, what you need to do of course, Kerry, is tailor your overall approach to emerging threats and challenges, and, therefore, the relationship we have got with the Indonesians, which is working well, in a whole range of security fields, needs of course to be extended and broadened and that's why President Yudhoyono and I have agreed to develop a new framework, but a framework which exists in a manner consistent with the Lombok Treaty which was negotiated some time ago, which governs the overall security relationship between our two countries.
O'BRIEN: But if I could just break in, if I could just break in there-
PM: President Yudhoyono has said to me, Kerry, that he is facing a large new inflow himself, therefore he's looking to us to help with his problems as well. The Malaysian Prime Minister, Prime Minister Najib is saying the same, because Malaysia is often the first point of call for Sri Lankans coming out of Colombo. You see, everyone is facing a parallel challenge, it makes sense to work together.
O'BRIEN: But if it's true that you are preparing to offer more money to Indonesia, and we are told that this, that part of this deal will be on the basis of each boat of asylum seekers that they intercept, where asylum seekers who end up in Indonesia, you will pay them money for that, that screams does it not, that you are essentially trying to get the Indonesians to take care of your problem for you? That, in fact, asylum seekers will be processed much more slowly there than they might be in Australia, that the conditions in Indonesia won't be as reasonable as they are in Australia for all sorts of reasons, where is the humanity in your approach there?
PM: Humanity consists in ensuring that all of our processes in Australia, on Christmas Island, and in the Indonesian archipelago and Malaysia and elsewhere are consistent with UNHCR processes. That's why we have our approach. The previous government chose to flout that, and brought in instead the Pacific Solution. They had kids behind razor wire, they had a range of different interventions which were designed for a domestic political audience, not in dealing in a manner which got the balance right between tough and hardline on people smugglers on the one hand and being balanced and humane and fair in dealing with asylum seekers on the other.
And can I just say this, across the entire region, all countries are wrestling with this challenge, it just makes sense to cooperate. You ask what will be the content of our new framework agreement with the Indonesians - our officials will work that through over the months ahead, as it should be. But can I say also, with the Indonesians, it's not going to be possible for them to deploy their navy on every single occasion that a boat may emerge in or through their archipelago. This is vast archipelago, thousands of islands spread over thousands of kilometres, as is the case with the extended maritime zone of Australia. These are complex challenges for us all, but frankly if you look at the Mediterranean, where you have got tens of thousands of asylum seekers streaming into Europe from North Africa. You have people from Colombo currently arriving by boat into Canada. It's a global problem, requiring both global, regional and national solutions. We believe we've got this balance right.
O'BRIEN: Not a totally unrelated issue Mr Rudd- your Treasury head Ken Henry in a major speech in Brisbane today projected startling new figures for Australia's population growth, substantially boosted by immigration as well as a rise in the birth rate. A 60 per cent increase in Australia's population over the next four decades, which is a significant jump again on the projections that Treasury made only two years ago. In other words, moving upward rapidly, and in a way that is not easy to predict. Does that suggest to you, when you think of all of the associated problems about trying to plan for that, in terms of urban- he talks about Sydney with a population of seven million, Melbourne a population of seven million, Brisbane four million. Is this going to be a time for national leadership to come well and truly to the fore, across the whole spectrum of problems thrown up by that?
PM: Well first of all Kerry, let me just say: I actually believe in a big Australia. I make no apology for that. I actually think it's good news that our population is growing. Contrast that with many countries in Europe where in fact it's heading in the reverse direction. I think it's good for us, it's good for our national security long term, it's good in terms of what we can sustain as a nation. Secondly, on the specific national leadership questions that you point to, I agree with you 110 per cent. Why do you think that we are now, for the first time in this country's history taking national leadership for the roll-out of national infrastructure, and new national broadband network. For the first time the Australian Government investing directly in urban rail projects across Australia, for the first time the Australian Government taking a direct engagement with the planning of our cities, and also with, for example, the housing approval processes and land supply arrangements of the states and territories and local government. Why? National leadership is necessary to plan for the future of our population, a challenge which has left languished before.
O'BRIEN: But this is about- I'm suggesting, national leadership, which takes a lot of responsibility from the states, many of whom have failed demonstrably in a number of these key areas. And secondly, Ken Henry today expressed personal pessimism about Australia's capacity on its past record, to be able to deal with environmental sustainability, while housing and essentially absorbing this big population.
PM: Well, we have a complex set of future challenges to deal with. This Government was elected not just to deal with the challenges which none of us predicted, namely wrestling the global financial crisis and the global economic recession, and coming through that as the only economy in the advanced world to have generated positive growth in the last year. But on top of that, to actually plan for the future. Why are we engaged in a national debate now over the future shape of our hospital system for the next 25 years? Why are we building the education revolution, why are we laying out a national infrastructure plan - not just in telecommunications but elsewhere - because we need to prepare for the significant increase in population, and boost long-term productivity growth.
O'BRIEN: But Dr Henry's message today, very briefly because we are out of time, Dr Henry's message today is that the population growth is going to be substantially more even than what you are planning your policies on today. In other words, it's going to be, the demand will be much greater again.
PM: It's going to be significant. And to take your earlier point about environmental impacts, you are right, it's massive. That is why we are taking such a leading position on climate change, but also the long-term sustainability of the Murray Darling and the proper provision of water supplies for the future. Hence again, our first-time investment in urban water projects right across the country. This Government is building for the future; we call it nation-building for the future. But let's be optimistic about the fact that this country is growing, so many around the world are heading the other way.
O'BRIEN: Kevin Rudd we're out of time, thanks for talking with us.
PM: Good to be with you.