FORDHAM: Kevin Rudd, good afternoon.
PM: Good afternoon, Ben. Thanks for having me on your program.
FORDHAM: My pleasure. When do you take off?
PM: Heading off first thing tomorrow morning, and it's to New York, special session on climate change leading up to the big conference in Copenhagen and then straight away to Pittsburgh for the G20 on the future of the global economy. So it's going to be a fairly four or five days.
FORDHAM: Truthful answer - do you get sick of the travel?
PM: Absolutely. Mate, I am a homebody. I'd actually prefer to be in my house, on the veranda in Brisbane, having a cup of tea with the cat and dog around and the kids.
FORDHAM: Your style of communication has been discussed a lot lately. Are your answers getting longer?
PM: Someone raised this the other day. I think, it depends, really, on the question that you're asked.
FORDHAM: Ok.
PM: If you're asked a question, as I was earlier this week, about where we're going on the future of the global economy one year after the Lehman Brothers collapse, then you're going to give a fairly considered response to that about what's happened in the last 12 months across all the major economic indicators, which way you're going to go forward. But if it's a simpler thing, then you deal with it more expeditiously. It really depends, its horses for courses.
FORDHAM: Can I hit you with a couple of short and sharp ones?
PM: Yes, sure. Here we go, it feels like a set up, mate.
FORDHAM: No, not all. The terror mastermind Noordin Top is dead. He was behind the mass murder of 95 Aussie's in Bali. Good riddance?
PM: Absolutely.
FORDHAM: OK, that was a short one. What about this one: the Australian -
PM: He's a mass murderer. He's a mass murderer, absolutely.
FORDHAM: The Australian Christian Lobby believes there's too much sex and violence on prime time TV. Do you agree?
PM: Matter for regulation by the commercial television networks, and that'll be, obviously, in response to what viewers want.
FORDHAM: You sit down and watch the TV, though. Do you think there's too much sex and violence on TV?
PM: You know, the truth is I don't. I just don't have time. Look, I was a kid growing up the '70s, where you had Number 96 and The Box. Do you remember those programs?
FORDHAM: No.
PM: OK, that's predates you, mate. I mean, these were not exactly what I'd describe as necessarily quality family viewing. There's been a fair bit of explicit stuff on television over the years. The question is to get the balance right, and this is a matter for the commercial regulators in contact with the appropriate authorities.
I don't think it is the right thing to do to have politicians sticking their nose into it and saying 'this program should be on, that should be off'. There are ways in which these standards should be determined by professional bodies and by the commercial outlets themselves.
FORDHAM: Our population is tipped to rise to 35 million by 2049. Can we cope, considering that vital services like health are already stretched?
PM: First of all, I think it's great that our population's growing because so many countries around the rest of the world are shrinking, and that poses a real problem in terms of having a strong tax base for the future and a strong economy and strong nation for the future.
Secondly, however, big problem - how do you actually invest in the infrastructure necessary to support a growing population. That costs. That's why 70 percent of our stimulus package is invested in infrastructure, like rail, road, ports, schools, hospitals, research institutions, etcetera, because you've got to lay that stuff out for the future.
FORDHAM: On the subject of health, you said before the last election that the Commonwealth would seize control if the states didn't fix it. Just, do you remember this? Have a listen to this:
AUDIO CLIP: We have put forward a national plan to end the buck passing between Canberra and the states. I have a long-term plan to fix our nation's hospitals. I will be responsible for implementing my plan, and I state this with absolute clarity - the buck will stop with me.
FORDHAM: So what happened?
PM: Absolutely, it does. What I've done since becoming Prime Minister is we've commissioned a National Health Reform document. It was released about a month or so ago. It gives us three strategic options for the future. I'm spending the next, through to the end of this year, discussing that with the medical profession and with the states. We'll put a final proposal to the state and territory governments on the future in the first part of next year. If they cop that voluntarily, well, then good. If they don't, as I said also prior to the last election, I'll go to the people for a mandate. We'll get on with the job. The buck stops with me.
FORDHAM: Yes or no - has anyone pulled you aside, any of your colleagues, and said 'look, health is a basket case, you know, don't get involved, don't have your fingerprints on it'?
PM: Yes.
FORDHAM: OK, I appreciate your honesty.
The big story in Sydney this week is Dennis Ferguson, the -
PM: - But you've actually got to bite the bullet with this stuff. You can't just let, you asked before, Ben, about population going to 35 million by mid-century - a large part of that story is the aging of the population. You know, the number of people over 65 will increase from 13 percent of our population to 22 percent of our population - nearly one in four Australians will be over 65. That means bigger health costs for the country, which means you've got to have long-term reforms. Otherwise, it's just going to become unaffordable for the nation.
FORDHAM: OK. The convicted paedophile Dennis Ferguson - Tony Abbott says that people need to remember that he is a human being. Do you agree?
PM: I am disgusted by paedophilia. I am disgusted by paedophiles. It makes me sick in the stomach. I said yesterday that these involve sensitive questions involving the law and I believe we should uphold the law, and in the case of the law here, it's administered by the state government of New South Wales.
FORDHAM: You've appointed another political rival to a top job overseas. When was it first raised, this idea of giving Brendan Nelson a gig?
PM: The honest answer is I can't quite recall when exactly it was.
FORDHAM: Roughly.
PM: Well when Brendan would have indicated that he was going to go early and get out of politics before the next election, and then we came back to him and said 'here's a proposal for you to consider', so -
FORDHAM: Has he been your guest at Kirribilli House recently?
PM: I think I've seen, well I've chatted to Brendan at Kirribilli House, probably once, I think, and that would have been quite a while ago, but I can't quite remember to be quite honest. I see a lot of people.
FORDHAM: OK, look, I'll move right along. Your public spray at the economic record of Howard-Costello, was that a bit unkind? Is it hypocritical to sledge them, considering that many businesses, like the one run by your lovely wife, benefitted greatly during their reforms?
PM: Well, can I say what I said in that speech, which was launching Paul Kelly's book on the last decade or so in Australian politics and economics was just to make a number of factual points. One was, in terms of the reform of the Australian economy, that the Howard Government effectively went to sleep.
Much of the productivity growth in the Australian economy - this is a matter of record from the nation's leading economists - much of the productivity growth that we saw in the late '90's, the early part of this decade, came from the deep reforms to the economy undertaken during the Hawke and Keating governments. That's just a fact.
What Paul Kelly was saying in his book was that that was largely true, but that the Howard government continued this reform effort. That's where I disagreed, because the only change that I could point to in the Howard government period of any fundamental nature was WorkChoices, and WorkChoices of course had the impact of ripping out a whole lot of basic protections for working families. That's why we undertook to get rid of it.
But on the broader attack on their failure to bring about long-term economic reforms to boost long-term productivity growth, the neglect in the investment in infrastructure, the neglect in the investment in skills, subject of multiple critiques by the Reserve Bank and others over a long period of time, I stand by everything I said.
FORDHAM: OK. There are more boats arriving in Australian waters carrying asylum seekers, five in the past fortnight. Prior to the last election, you said you would turn them back. How many have you turned back?
PM: Well, these boats have been intercepted by Australian Navy vessels, and consistent with our procedures they have been taken to Christmas Island, that's occurred in the most recent one.
Stand back from all this - on the question of comparison, which is relevant to your question, in the period of the Howard government, we had about 13,500 people arrive here by boat. In the period that this Government has been in office, nearly two years now, we've had about 1,100 arrive by boat. As I said, when boats are intercepted, they are taken to Christmas Island. If they are not proven to be bona fide refugees, we send them back home. That's how we do things.
FORDHAM: I know you've got to rush off to a meeting. Just a quick one - Mark Latham says that Julia Gillard told him that she believed that you were spying on Labor back in 2005 and leaking to the Coalition. Is that awkward?
PM: No. I think it what it really is, it's sad, because so many people in the Australian labour movement, Labor Party, stood by Mark Latham when he was going through a hard time. Julia Gillard was one of them. And now it seems he treats his friends and people who were his friends in a very, very strange way.
FORDHAM: So you're off to the States. Do you have a one-on-one locked in with President Obama?
PM: You know something, I haven't even looked at the agenda yet in terms of who I'm meeting. I'm seeing a whole bunch of people. The way in which these summits work, by the way, is if you're in the room for you know, effectively two days, you actually spend a lot of time talking with one another at what's called 'at the margins' of the conference. That is, over a cup of coffee, having a long chat. That's how I had a chat with him in L'Aquila at some length, that meeting we had in Italy in July, about a whole range of things.
There are stacks of informal opportunities to have a conversation over dinner, or over coffee at the table. Whether we are having a formal meeting or not, I actually don't know at this stage.
FORDHAM: I can't believe that you'll be flying out when the footy finals are on.
PM: I did say to President Obama 'when you are deciding to convene this G20, Barack, have you heard of the AFL Grand Final?', to which he said 'What's the AFL Grand Final, Kevin?'. I explained it to him and I said 'It's almost as sacrilegious as doing something like this when you're having a Superbowl.' He said 'I'm sorry, the AFL, whatever it is, will have to wait.'
FORDHAM: Do you have to pretend to be a sports nut to be the PM?
PM: Oh no, there's sport that I really like. I really like cricket, I really like rugby, because I used to play a bit of cricket, I played a little bit of rugby, and I'm no good at either but I really enjoy-
FORDHAM: Ok, give us a tip for the NRL - the Broncos playing the Dragons.
PM: Well mate, I'm the patron of the Broncos. What do you expect? But you know, on the rest of it, like the AFL and stuff, I actually like going to the games. Am I any expert on the rules and stuff? No. Do I have, sort of, 30 years of track record on all this stuff? No.
Is it a lot fun to go and see a really well played game of AFL? Absolutely. And as or the NRL, Broncs' all the way, mate.
FORDHAM: Do you want to give us a quick scoop - rule out an early election?
PM: My intention is to serve the term for which I've been elected. And that's why want to be able to do. We've got a stack of stuff still to get through.
FORDHAM: I know you've got to get to a meeting, so I'm going to say goodbye. Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us.
PM: Thanks for having us on the program, Ben.