MITCHELL: In the studio with me, the Prime Minister. Mr Rudd, good morning. PM: Good morning Neil, thanks for having me on the program. MITCHELL: Well thank you for coming in. Today is an historic day. We finish a 6-year commitment in Iraq. Were you aware the last soldiers were due back in Australia last night? PM: I didn't have the precise timetable of that, but we did commit to withdrawing our combat forces from Iraq. Those decisions were taken. But I know from the military, operationalising that and making it happen on the ground always takes more time. It's complex, and you've got to work with your friends and allies too. MITCHELL: Do you know were they greeted by Government, or will we make some sort of statement that our commitment has ended? PM: In terms of the reception arrangements for those particular faces, no I'm not aware. But normally we're in close contact with the Chief of Defence force for appropriate reception arrangements for groups of soldiers as they come back, and I'm sure if you were to put that question to John Faulkner, the Defence Minister, appropriate arrangements would've been put in place. MITCHELL: I've had approaches from a number of people in the military who are concerned, that there hasn't, as far as they're concerned, been any official, formal recognition of the fact we've been there six years. A lot of people, thousands of people have served there, some have been injured, and one died in those circumstances. But, they're a little concerned that there hasn't been a formal, official recognition. Do you intend to make one? PM: I think it's appropriate that we do, I really do. You see, we all know the history of Australia's engagement in the Iraq War. It was a matter of huge debate in the country, and the two major parties in Australian politics took a different view. But you know, what we said all the way through was that our men and women in uniform should never be the meat in the sandwich for that. The searing lesson from Vietnam: never put our troops in the middle of a political bunfight. They respond to the direction of the democratically elected Government of the day. They did so in response to the direction of the then Howard Government, and my experience, having visited them in the field in Iraq, and based on everything I've heard from the allies, is that they have done a fantastic job. So on your key question about appropriate recognition, I'll work that through with CDF and the Defence Minister, but these are a fine body of soldiers, and should be recognised. MITCHELL: Are you embarrassed by our involvement in Iraq? PM: Well as you know, when the original decision was taken to militarily engage in Iraq, our objection was this: we didn't have a conclusive outcome from the United Nations inspectorate on weapons of mass destruction. We were concerned about the precedents in International Law, that is going into a country without being backed without a UN Security Council resolution, of precedents that that set up for the future. So we had great concerns, but, having been elected, our forces were there, so our job was to work within the framework of that decision, and as I said, never ever cause them grief personally or professionally, because of the circumstances in which they found themselves, and they discharged their function well. In the last stage in Al Muthanna province, in doing what I think is a template for the future, that is handing over security to a locally trained military force in Iraq, that of course is something we seek to apply to Afghanistan. MITCHELL: So what have we achieved in Iraq? Have we, have you got democracy there? PM: As far as- sorry, I was just taking a cup of tea when you asked me that question. MITCHELL: I'll ask a longer question. PM: That's alright, I'll sip more quickly. Look, I've met the Prime Minister al-Maliki of Iraq on a number of occasions, and most recently in Australia. I think he has made extraordinary achievements, given how difficult the security environment is. I would say that, politically, he has achieved a remarkable democratisation of the country given the enormous constraints. You know the three-way split within Iraq- Sunnis, Shias, Kurds, this is a very difficult confederation. If we look at the history of the last several hundred years, it's always been that way. So hats off to Prime Minister al-Maliki for what he's done, and we've, in response to his request to us, are in there, boots and all, working with him on his economic priorities. I asked him when I was last in Baghdad, “what do you want from us?”, and he said “I really need help with trained agricultural workers”. So we have created, I think, from memory, 100 agricultural research scholarships for the people that they want trained in dry land farming. That's practical stuff, we're doing that with them now. MITCHELL: Okay, I guess this is related. Two funerals in two days for you. One for one of the victims of that atrocious bombing in Jakarta, and the other, later today, for a soldier killed in Afghanistan. In a sense they're related, are they not? PM: Terrorism is the enemy of us all, of all countries, of all peoples, in all places. And the linkage between the two, as you've rightly pointed Neil, is terrorists are trained in places, a lot of those terrorists who have been active in South East Asia were trained originally in Afghanistan, which is why we cannot back away from any strategy which aims to remove Afghanistan as this sort of free-range training base for terrorists, which it was in the events leading up to 2001. The funeral yesterday in Canberra, which I attended for an Austrade official, based on our advice, the first civilian Australian official to be killed by a terrorist attack in the line of duty. This was an extraordinarily moving affair for the family, and for the official community. Two other Australians from the business community have been killed as well. Let me say very clearly on that, we, the Australian Government, will spare absolutely no effort in working with Indonesia to track down these murderers. These are cold-blooded murderers, and I don't care how long it takes, they've murdered our people, we intend, with Indonesia, to track ‘em down, and help bring them to justice. MITCHELL: Should they be executed, if caught? PM: Well, I've said repeatedly that every country's judicial system is different. You know our universal position in terms of capital punishment, I've never backed away from that, but you also work with the reality of individual criminal justice systems around the world, including the United States and Indonesia, which do have capital punishment. I'm concerned here about bringing these murderers to justice. MITCHELL: That probably means execution. You wouldn't weep for them. PM: Our position is, as you well know, universal opposition to the death penalty, like the Liberal Party in Australia, but we work within the reality of the criminal justice system of the day. Cold-blooded murderers should be brought to justice, and I don't care how long it takes, Neil. We're going to deploy every effort, with our friends in Jakarta, to bring these murderers to justice. MITCHELL: On the economy, Access Economics has been commissioned by the construction unions, which I believe were protesting at the Labor Party conference today, to do a report which-
PM: That's unusual (laughter)
MITCHELL: Well normally they're on the inside, aren't they?
PM: Oh no, usually they're on the outside, anyway.
MITCHELL: I thought they still had a vote.
PM: Oh well, that's never prevented them in the past. You and I were talking recently about ALP conferences in the past. It's always been a colourful affair.
MITCHELL: Quite a few of them catching up with sleep up there at the moment.
PM: Well, we're in the midst of a, you know, a global economic recession. Therefore, we're on the serious business of how you respond to it, rather than just conference hijinks about this, that, and the other.
MITCHELL: The construction union report, or the Access report to construction unions, said 80,000 jobs could go in the next three years, do you think that's accurate - in construction alone?
PM: I haven't had the benefit of reading it, but I will now. Well, I think there a couple of things to be said. In responding to the crisis and long-term changes to the Australian economy, two things are necessary: stabilise the financial system, but secondly, then inject all this activity into the economy, which we have, and the huge beneficiary of that has been the construction sector.
We've got this massive investment in the biggest school modernisation program the country has seen, the social housing additions, the largest ones by the Commonwealth ever, and thirdly, the energy insulation program in people's houses. These are huge additions. But, look, I don't underestimate the challenges here, but we're working very closely with outfits like the Housing Industry Association and others to make sure that we have as robust a future for the sector and therefore employment within in it in the future as possible. MITCHELL: So is 80,000 jobs out in three years in construction possible? PM: I don't see a basis for those numbers. I stand to be corrected. That's why I'm going to read the report carefully. But, have I been presented with numbers to that effect myself? Not that I can recall, but I take stuff by Access seriously. We'll work our way through it. The key things is, not just here's a piece of doom and gloom, the key thing is Neil, what are you doing about it? MITCHELL: Well yesterday you announced 50,000 green jobs, many of them for young workers. When it was it decided to do that, when was that action decided? PM: We have been working our way through what to do with youth unemployment in particular, over the last many, many months. Some time ago I announced, I think, in fact I think I did so here in Melbourne, a Jobs and Training Compact with Australia, with three parts to that: Compact with Young Australians; Compact with Australians who have been retrenched; and the Compact with Local Communities. This is a logical build-on from the Compact with Young Australians, which I've said, with the Premiers and Chief Ministers, we need an arrangement where young people under the age of 25 should be earning or learning. What we're trying to do is to make that as possible within the schools system and within the training system, and the announcement yesterday was in part about that. MITCHELL: So when was it decided? Because your Minister didn't seem to know anything about it, Mark Arbib. PM: Well the elements of this have been developed over some time. I think it's fair to say, I think Mark would admit himself, he didn't have the best of days yesterday, but you know, that's not unique to him, that's not unique to politics. MITCHELL: So how will it work? Will it be work for the dole? Will they get paid the dole? Will it just be another version of work for the dole? PM: Well you've got 10,000 places in this national Green Jobs Corps. These deal with both a combination of training and work experience, and obviously, to benefit from this, which is 26 weeks worth of training, and as I'm advised, a minimum of 134 hours worth of training from an accredited training provider, at the same time as you are being supported by either Youth Allowance or New Start. But that's, what we're trying to do here - MITCHELL: That is work for the dole. PM: Well, we're trying to combine two realities. Young people are out there, obtaining these support benefits from the country. What we want to do is to make sure they're getting new skills. That's what this is about, so that when the recovery comes, they've got an additional set of skills. Is it a silver bullet in itself? No, but if you add it to what we're proposing to do with new apprenticeships for the future, new local green jobs under the national jobs fund, another 6,000, 4,000 training places associated with the energy efficiency program in homes, then, taken together with other measures, it does make a difference. MITCHELL: Well you mentioned also in your speech 30,000 trainees and apprentices in priority sectors of the building and constructions centres. Who pays for them? PM: Well, when you're talking about apprenticeships, obviously these are young people in apprenticeships out there in the workforce, but what we're also doing is making sure, in partnership with industry, that we develop a new national skills agreement so that, for training as of - my recollection is 1 July next year, sorry, 1 January next year - that the training program, 30,000 folk, has added to it a whole new set of green skills which are related to that as well. MITCHELL: So those new, those jobs, will be paid for by private industry? PM: Well these are apprenticeships which are - MITCHELL: So how do we know they'll be created? PM: Well, hang on, what we said yesterday is that these 30,000 apprenticeships would have new sets of skills incorporated into the training. MITCHELL: Well how many jobs are you actually creating? We've got 10,000 work for the dole, 6,000 local green jobs through the jobs fund, are they permanent jobs? PM: Well, can I say to you, Neil, what we're creating as a Government overall through our support for the whole range of stimulus strategies is this - based on Treasury, but it's a fair answer to your question - is put all our stimulus together, that's 210,000 people. MITCHELL: But the argument here is that this is a piece of spin, and that what you've done is put 10,000 people on work for the dole. PM: Can I say that the fact that our combined stimulus measures are keeping more than 210,000 people in the country in work who would otherwise lose their job is attested to by Treasury advice. Secondly, the other arm of our strategy is, when people are either out of the workforce or struggling to get into the workforce, how do you make best use of their time? These have been described yesterday as a combination of jobs, apprenticeships and traineeship programs. They are that. For example, the 6,000 new local green jobs, out of the 50,000, come directly out of the national local jobs fund. That is directly as it should be. The training places for insulation installers are along these lines - we've got about a $4 billion investment out there nationwide to provide opportunity for many of your listeners to get ceiling insulation in, but here's the challenge - you can either have low-skilled workers go and do that but without picking up new skills on the way through, or, you can introduce training programs so that once they've done that work they've got new skills for the future. That's the 4,000, then the other elements. MITCHELL: Fair enough, but you've announced 50,000 new jobs. How many of them are new? PM: No, no, no, what I said yesterday was 50,000 jobs, apprenticeships and traineeships. That's exactly what I said, and it's a combination of the above. MITCHELL: Your speech, I've got it in front of me, the quote: “The Government will now create 50,000 new green jobs.” PM: The speech that I delivered at Conference yesterday referred to jobs, apprenticeships and traineeships. MITCHELL: New. New green jobs, trainees and apprenticeships. PM: Well, the apprenticeships deal with a whole new set of skills and the money, let go to - MITCHELL: But are they new jobs or not? PM: Well, can I say that the money underpinning these things, Neil, is absolutely new. They were provided into the contingency reserve of the Government at budget time as we worked our way through these measures. And secondly, it is a combination of jobs, apprenticeships and traineeships, as I said in my speech yesterday, and it's all about making a difference at a time of global economic recession. What's the big lesson from the last recession? Don't allow people who can't enter the workforce now or who lose their job to become the next generation of unemployed. Instead, let's provide an opportunity for skills to be got during the period of the downturn so that when the recovery comes, a difference can be made. MITCHELL: You have a sip of tea, we'll take a break. Back in a moment.
PM: Thanks Neil.
MITCHELL: The Prime Minister is with me. We'll take a quick call. Sonia - please go ahead, Sonia.
CALLER: Thank you Neil. Good morning, Mr Prime Minister. PM: G'day Sonia. How are you? CALLER: I'm fine, thank you. Mr Rudd, the emissions tax will cause increases in electricity, petrol, food prices, and here in Victoria it will also affect our water prices because of the desalination plant, and we have also been warned that council rates will also rise to cover it. Given that workers do not have concession cards to help with any discounts, I'd like you to explain please how this is in line with your election promise that working families will not be any worse off under a Rudd Government. PM: On the emissions trading question, which follows on from the introduction of the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, two things - what we've done when we introduced this to do our bit for Australia and for the planet to bring down greenhouse gas emissions, because if we don't do that, huge impact for the economy and jobs longer term, as well as a huge impact for the environment, but the second thing is this: we actually understand that there are adjustment costs which go to industry and to households on the way through. If you go to the Government's legislation and the White Paper, which I'm sure is up on one of the Government websites, it goes to the detail of the adjustment payments to families which occur once this scheme is introduced. We understand that in particular with lower income earners, and for middle income earners, and we've been very attentive to the representations from many of the welfare organisations in the country, it's going to be, obviously, a complex process to implement, but we're very seized of the impact on family budgets. MITCHELL: Prime Minister, as we said, your conference is underway in Sydney. The conference has voted, unanimously, as I read, that there be no reduction in business taxes at all, no tax relief for businesses. Will you be bound by that? PM: Well, we're always mindful of what the conference resolutions might be, but it is the prerogative of the democratically elected Government to take appropriate decisions in the national interest, and what I've said repeatedly is that we have the Henry commission of review underway - Ken Henry, the Secretary of the Treasury, looking at the totality of the tax system for the future, and we're not in the business of pre-empting the outcomes of that, but we have an open mind in terms of the future direction of tax reform in the country, as we should. We'll always be mindful of what Conference might say- MITCHELL: But it's not binding? PM: We'll be governing in the national interest. MITCHELL: That might surprise or disappoint a few of them. PM: Well, it's a conference resolution. We're mindful of that, but you know, we've always got to get the balance right when it comes to tax in the country - make sure that working families are not being over-taxed, make sure that our corporate are neither being under- or over-taxed. These are complex things. What's the big problem with the tax system? It's frankly, it's become a complex mess. If you look at the size of the Tax Act twelve years ago and look at it now, it's like it's gone up, sort of, sixteen elevator flights. It's just huge and it's complex and you speak to any tax accountant, it's a mess. How do we simplify that for the future as well as making sure that we've got that balance right between the resources which Government needs to get key services out and at the same time enough incentive in the private economy, all the tradies listening to your program this morning, making sure that they've still got enough incentive to build up their small businesses. MITCHELL: Have you seen the report on the OzCar issue yet? PM: Ah, no. MITCHELL: It's finished, we read. PM: Ah, don't know about that. So, no I don't. MITCHELL: Okay. Kyle Sandilands, I've just heard a report from a number of childcare workers and psychologists urging you to ensure Kyle Sandilands is taken off air because of that awful incident with the 14-year-old child. Is that really a role for you? PM: Well, it's a private radio station and a private company. It's ultimately a management decision for them, but can I say this is really off, it's wrong, shouldn't be done. This is a young girl and I am, as I think most Australians are, really distressed at the way in which a young person could be treated this way. I assume that all appropriate counselling support has been provided to the young person. I think it's quite wrong. It's entirely right for the program presenters to apologise, and it's right that they do so. What's happens beyond that is a matter for the company. MITCHELL: Do you agree that generation Y is a bit too choosy about the jobs they take? PM: I think what, this is a comment made by Mark Arbib, the Employment Minister the other day. Look, I read carefully what Mark had to say. He was just saying ‘there's a few realities out there.' There's a global recession underway, collapsing economies around the world, we in Australia have done a whole lot of stuff to try and keep things in support. Therefore, if you're a young person, it's a new reality. Therefore, let's just adjust to it flexibly, and that may mean that right now you don't take the job which is your heart's desire, maybe it's a stepping stone to something else. MITCHELL: What's the worst job you've ever had? PM: Well, when I left school I worked flipping hamburgers, I worked as a hospital wardsman, I worked in a pub pulling beers, I worked in a shopping centre doing some other stuff, I've worked as a hotel clerk. What was the most difficult one? I'll tell you what the most difficult one was - when I was at university, or was it before I went to university? Anyway, it was a job I once had as a cleaner in a sawmill, cleaning the loos. MITCHELL: I would have thought it was an easy answer - cleaning Laurie Oakes' toilet. It'd have to be the worst job. How long were you his cleaner? (laughter) PM: I was moving to that point. (laughter) But these are, you know, it's all part of growing up, doing different things. MITCHELL: Bob Hawke's going to be made a life member this week, which should liven the party up a bit. Will you be there? PM: I certainly will be. I think that occurs tomorrow at conference. Bob's made a huge contribution throughout his life, and in very colourful ways, as you and I have discussed from time to time. MITCHELL: And I read in an interview with your wife that you sleep three hours a night. Is that insomnia or is that lifestyle? PM: I think, look, I haven't seen the exact sort of things that Therese said. I think the truth is, I can get by on a small amount of sleep if I need to. You know what it's like - some days it's just, you know, crushingly busy. You might have a late night commitment with a charity here in Melbourne, but you're up at, you know, the crack of dawn to be on this program, but you try and level it up so that other nights you get more sleep. MITCHELL: So what's a big night's sleep for you? PM: Oh, if I get, you know, six I'm ecstatic, and that's good, but I think people expect people in national and political life to be working hard. This Government works hard, we try our best. MITCHELL: Thank you very much for your time. PM: Thanks for having me on the program, Neil. (ends)