E&OE
MITCHELL: Prime Minister thank you very much for speaking with us.
PM: Pleasure to be with you Neil.
MITCHELL: An Australian man is in custody in China accused of spying, the Rio Tinto executive Stern Hu. Now several analysts here have said it is ludicrous what has happened to him. Do you agree?
PM: Well we're still establishing all the facts Neil and our first responsibility is to get consular access to Mr Hu and I understand from discussions with the Australian Foreign Minister Stephen Smith that access has now been given. I think that access will occur fairly soon. We'll just proceed through this step by step. Our objective is of course to secure Mr Hu's release and that is going to take all of our combined efforts and we'll move through it methodically.
MITCHELL: If you're determined to secure his release, this is a tough question but maybe you don't want to answer it, but do you believe he was spying for Australia?
PM: Look the Foreign Minister is handling this in Australia and I am just reluctant to go into any sorts of detail on this because this is a subject of continued discussions with the Chinese authorities. I think the best thing to do is simply regard this as a consular case as the Foreign Minister has indicated. And we will continue to deal with the authorities in Beijing, in Shanghai, and of course as you know the Foreign Minister has called in the Chinese acting ambassador to insist that we obtain consular access consistent with our consular agreement with the Chinese and I understand that is now being granted.
This is a difficult case. I fully accept that. It's going to be tough, we have tough consular cases around the world from time to time but we're going to work our way through this one systematically.
MITCHELL: Why at a consular level, why not a higher level, there seems to be massive implications for relations between the two countries and for trade?
PM: Well we're dealing with it as a consular case because we have Australians who are charged with various offences around the world from time to time and we have to deal with it with the law enforcement authorities to begin with.
Once that occurs and as is appropriate, we then raise things at the political level but we do it in a systematic staged way once we've established all the facts. And that's what we're doing in this case as well. I also emphasise that the Government through the Foreign Minister and the Department is in close contact with Rio Tinto and in close contact with Mr Hu's family and we are working through this with all of our resources deployed. As I said, we will make other representations to the Chinese Government at other levels as is appropriate and when it's appropriate.
MITCHELL: But the allegation here is spying. I mean it's not a drug offence or something like that, it is something that involves the national interest of this country.
PM: Well you know from your previous discussions with Mr Howard over many years, Neil, that any Prime Minister or the Foreign Minister doesn't discuss intelligence matters and I don't propose to break that convention. As the Foreign Minister Mr Smith has already indicated, this case is best treated as a consular matter and that is the way we're approaching it and as I said all necessary actions and representations will be taken by us once we've established all the facts.
MITCHELL: Do you know where Mr Hu is? Do you know what his condition is, because his family doesn't?
PM: Well, as I said, my advice from Australia - and I stand to be corrected on this because I am on the other side of the world and it's midnight here - is that consular access is about to be granted by the Chinese.
And as I said when I indicated before we've got to move through this matter step by step. First thing is to get access to Mr Hu, secondly establish his condition and thirdly the facts surrounding the grounds under which the Chinese authorities have taken him into custody and I've got to say the three other Chinese nationals with him.
MITCHELL: The Chinese say they have sufficient evidence, the reports here are that in China that's code for we've got him locked up and he's not getting out, we've got the case. You know China better than anybody, better than most people in this country. What are they saying when they say they've got sufficient evidence?
PM: Well first of all I haven't seen the transcript of those remarks from the Chinese Government or whichever Chinese authority is supposed to have said that. Secondly I know from my conversations with the Foreign Minister Stephen Smith that it's just a case of step by step establishing the facts, his health, his condition and then moving on from there in terms of whatever other actions we need to take.
We take this case very seriously, we take Mr Hu's condition very seriously, we take the plight of any Australian around the world who finds themself in consular difficulty seriously.
There are many, many cases Neil which don't even make it to public attention that we're dealing with which involve high levels of sensitivity. This one is going to be hard, it will be difficult but we'll work our way through it.
MITCHELL: Well do I assume Australia is standing by this man?
PM: Absolutely. We stand by every Australian citizen who finds themselves in difficulty abroad. At any time around the world we've got about a million Australians offshore. Many of those Australians will find themselves in difficult from time to time, some will find themselves arrested by local authorities on various charges in some of the strangest parts of the world.
The good thing about our diplomats and our consular officials abroad is that they do everything possible to intervene in these cases and often it takes some time to resolve them but we're going to work our way through this. And as I said beyond the consular level in raising things as appropriate at the political level, we'll do that step by step.
MITCHELL: So you will the Chinese Premier at some stage if it's not sorted out?
PM: As I said we'll take it step by step. We'll just work our way through it and then the Foreign Minister and the advice he gets from his officials on the ground, we'll make judgments about what political representations are then appropriate, if they are appropriate. Our objectives of course are to support Mr Hu in these circumstances as we would any other Australian citizen. That's the responsibility of all Australian Governments.
MITCHELL: But Prime Minister we have here a man who is accused of spying for this country against another country. That - does that jeopardise relations and trade between Australia and China?
PM: Well to repeat what I said before Neil, I don't comment on any matters concerning intelligence and that's the longstanding practice of previous Australian Governments.
On the second question you raised, which is about our relationship with China - look, if you back over the last 30 years there have been ebbs and flows and bumps along the road, that is part and parcel of managing any bilateral relationship. I am confident we can get through this. This is a relationship which is very broad but we take the interests of any single Australian national very seriously and we'll be deploying all efforts in support of this Australian citizen as well.
MITCHELL: It has been described that what is happening is a ludicrous tactic because of the Chinese being upset about the deal - Chinalco and Rio - falling through. If that is widely interpreted, any businessman operating in China would have to be very nervous at the moment, wouldn't they?
PM: Well we have, as I am advised by the Foreign Minister, no information to that effect but as I said our challenge in the immediate period ahead is to establish all the facts. I think you would know from dealing with any cases, even in Australia, that it takes a while to establish exactly what has occurred in each circumstance involving the local police. We're going through that with the Chinese now and it will take some time.
As for the security of other Australians within China, I think it's a challenge which faces all Australians either living or working abroad, working within the fabric of the laws of the land. Of course sometimes our Australians abroad are working in countries with a vastly different legal system to what we have in Australia and that presents real problems. And that's why we've got you know, the best people we have in our consular and diplomatic posts to try and look after Australians in these circumstances.
And to say what I have said before, we'll be in there doing everything that is necessary to support Mr Hu's case and we'll be making whatever level of representations are necessary when they become necessary in support of his case as well.
MITCHELL: You say Australia stands by him, Australia wants to get him out. Does that mean we believe he is not guilty?
PM: Well, we say this in relation to any individual who's been taken into custody by authorities around the world that our objective is to stand by the individual concerned, and to support them in a practical consular fashion. And having established the facts of the case, then we make appropriate efforts to make sure that the justice system works for them. This individual is an Australian citizen and we take his rights very seriously and we'll continue to do so.
MITCHELL: You know China very well, you know how it works, is it likely he will go to trial?
PM: Neil, if I knew all the facts concerning this particular case I'd be in a far better position to answer your question. I'm also hamstrung by the fact of being on the other side of the world at the moment.
The Foreign Minister is handling these matters on the ground and I have absolute confidence that he and his officials are raking over every detail of this as we speak, as they would have been over the last several days, and are in intimate connection with Rio Tinto the company, as well as doing everything possible to make sure that Mr Hu's family are kept briefed and with all information as is available flowing to them.
MITCHELL: Just a final point, I did understand from what you said earlier, I want to check it, that you would like to see him out of custody and perhaps out of the country as soon as possible?
PM: Well our objective with Australians abroad is to first of all stand by them when they find themselves in difficulty with local law enforcement authorities, establish the facts, and unless a demonstrable criminal offence has been committed, we of course stand by the individual and seek to obtain their release.
We do this constantly with Australians around the world, and we will do so in the case of Mr Hu. But I said before, our challenge in the first place is to establish all the facts, work through it calmly with the Chinese officials, and then take whatever subsequent action is necessary.
MITCHELL: I know it's late, if I may, another couple of things quickly, you've had the meeting with the Pope, did you get Mary MacKillop up?
PM: (laughter) Neil, that is a matter for the internal deliberations of the Catholic Church. But what the good Sisters of St Joseph said to me in Sydney, which is the home church or the home order of Mary MacKillop, they'd appreciate it if I simply indicated to the Pope that they were excited about the process that they are engaged in, that Mary MacKillop was a good person and was well respected across the Australian community. And the Pope and I had a good conversation about her life's work.
MITCHELL: Did you talk about other issues as well?
PM: Oh very much so. We spoke about climate change. We spoke about religious freedom. We spoke about interfaith dialogue. We spoke about his most recent Encyclical, which he's released on the question of morality and free markets.
It was a good conversation but on top of all that Neil, he indicated how much he'd enjoyed his time in Australia last year at World Youth Day. It was a good and friendly conversation. Tim Fischer by the way, our new Ambassador to the Holy See, is doing a fantastic job in Rome, is well connected, has intimately engaged and worked with the Holy See on these questions of interfaith dialogue, particularly with the Muslim world, because that is very relevant to, shall we say, broader and longer term security concerns we all have as well.
MITCHELL: I noticed you gave him a six-pack of De Bortoli, we do the same thing on this program!
PM: (laughter) Well I heard that - I'll let you in on a secret, I heard that when the Holy Father was travelling back to Rome, having been in Australia, he did sample a bit of the old De Bortoli and thought it wasn't bad. Now, I don't know whether that's absolutely true or not, but, if that did happen to be the case then we took a decision that we should well, make sure we had a decent bottle of the local drop to have with dinner there in the Holy See. He seemed to appreciate it.
MITCHELL: A couple of other very quick things, have you ever climbed Uluru?
PM: Ah no I haven't actually.
MITCHELL: What's your view on having it closed to climbers?
PM: I have just seen a report about all of this. It's some sort of report by a local authority as I understand it.
MITCHELL: Yeah, it's a management committee, yeah.
PM: Management committee, and it's a discussion paper?
MITCHELL: It is.
PM: I am on the other side of the world. As a matter of general principle my view has always been that people should be able to have, you know, appropriate access to Uluru.
Obviously it's a question I suppose of public safety and managing important natural parts of our landscape, it's a bit like managing the Great Barrier Reef in some respects. And there have to be appropriate management plans. I think it would be very sad if we got to a stage though where Australians and frankly our guests from abroad weren't able to enjoy that experience.
MITCHELL: What, to climb it?
PM: Yeah. To climb it.
MITCHELL: So you'd think it'd probably be a good thing if they could climb it. I've never done it myself but a lot of people say it's very impressive to climb.
PM: Yeah, I've not done it either but I've run into people from abroad who've climbed it and have had a great experience. I've also run into people from abroad who have fallen over and done themselves great damage. I've run into them all.
So management plans are necessary to both preserve sites like this and I suppose that's the basis of some of these studies which have been undertaken. But management studies are also necessary in terms of properly regulating access in terms of public safety as well. But it's a wonderful part of Australia out there, and I look forward to getting out there myself at some stage.
MITCHELL: A couple of quick things, the G8 and climate change, very small step, is it enough?
PM: It is a small step Neil, I think you're right to say that these steps taken here at the G8 Summit have been modest and there's still a long way to go before Copenhagen at the end of the year. One good thing to come out of it though is this - the G8 leaders have agreed that we need to have as our scientific aim doing everything we can to avoid a temperature increase in excess of two degrees Celsius.
That's important because that starts to frame a common scientific base around the targets we then need to embrace for the various major polluting countries around the world. That may sound like a small point of progress to your listeners, I understand that, there's a huge amount of work still to be done, we in Australia will be doing our bit as well.
One other thing by the way, the G8 came out and strongly supported the principle of emissions trading schemes as an effective, market-based way of bringing down greenhouse gas emissions. That's what the G8 collectively have said - Governments both Conservative and shall I say Centre-Left from around the world.
Mr Turnbull and the Liberals don't seem to be able to make up their mind about whether they'll allow our emissions trading scheme through the Senate or not. I think Australian business would just like us to get on with the job, and we need to get on with the job of acting on climate change, we need also business certainty.
MITCHELL: Thank you for your time, there's always last one question. It's gotten a lot of attention in this country.
PM: I always worry about your last questions but off you go.
MITCHELL: While you've, something you said a couple of days ago, what is programmatic specificity? (laughter)
PM: (laughter) It means specific programs. If you're travelling around a bit Neil, I'm sure we all get a bit tired with our language, so there you go. It's just one of those things. But specific programs is what I was talking about, I think it was in relation to the sorts of outcomes we could expect from this G8 Summit on climate change or it may have been a reference to other elements of the global charter on, as proposed by the Germans on the economy, I can't recall the specific reference, but it would have been about specific programs.
MITCHELL: And you'll also be pleased to know that Trivial Pursuit has added your name as an answer to one of the questions and that's considered you've made it on the international stage now.
PM: You mean I've made it to triviality? (laughter)
MITCHELL: (laughter) Thank you for your time.
PM: I don't know quite to take that one mate. Sounds good.
MITCHELL: Thank you for your time.
PM: I appreciate it very much.
(Ends)