MIDDLETON: Prime Minister welcome to Newshour.
PM: Thanks for having me on the program Jim
MIDDLETON: First to an issue of the day, Kosovo. Australia rushed to recognise the independence of this Balkan state, now Serbia's retaliating by pulling its ambassador out of Australia, that doesn't all go particularly well for Kosovo in particular, or the Balkans in general, does it?
PM: I wouldn't say that we rushed, we were just quite determined to act early and decisively. The recent history of Kosovo has been a very sad one and we've seen what's happened in terms of the loss of life. We've seen also what's happened in terms of the deprived economic opportunities available to the Kosovo's themselves. So we took a principled decision this was the right way to go. We did so in consultation with our friends and allies around the world. As for the actions and response by the Serbian Government, well nothing that's happened here that's not happening in the United States, in United Kingdom, France and elsewhere, but I am sure we will get through these things. Political transitions like this, they happen, they cause some friction on the way through, but for the people of Kosovo this is an important step forward and we wish those people well in carving out a future for themselves in the community of nations.
MIDDLETON: Mr Rudd, relations with Indonesia are paramount importance for Australia, the Indonesians have been saying that the recently signed Lombok treaty requires Australia to return any Papuans should they turn up on Australian shores, would you comply with that condition?
PM: Well the Lombok Treaty is one which has been signed by our Foreign Minister and by his Indonesian counterpart Hassan Wirajuda and I spoke with the Indonesian Foreign Minister just after that ceremony when he came to Sydney. We will honour fully the terms of that agreement and because we respect Indonesia's sovereignty over West Papua or Irian Jaya as some would call it. When it comes to the handling of individual cases that will be done in full conformity with Australian law, international law and our undertakings under the treaty
MIDDLETON: So you would be prepared to send back Papuans regardless of the domestic outcry which there would undoubtedly be?
PM: What we are prepared to do is to act fully in conformity with Australian domestic law, our international legal obligations under the Convention, and the specific undertakings we've made to our friends in the Indonesian republic. I think the big challenge with West Papua and this is the dialogue I intend to have with my good friend SBY when I next have the opportunity in Indonesia, is to work out together how we can assist as Australians with the long term economic development of West Papua to provide real opportunities for people there. Because if that's going well and if the local administration of West Papua's going well, the push factors for people to leave West Papua then decrease and that's why I want to have a real positive productive dialogue and cooperative relationship with President Yudhoyono on, in the future
MIDDLETON: Still on Indonesia, the Indonesian Ambassador to Canberra has gone out of his way to suggest that Australia's travel advisory's should be scrapped, it is time to consider ditching them?
PM: I know the Ambassador very well, he is a good friend of mine and I've known him some time and his predecessor and his predecessor. They are fine representatives of their country, but my job and the job of the government on behalf of Australians is to take the best considered advice on what are the security circumstances on the ground in various parts of the world and various parts of the Indonesian republic. And I understand that causes friction from time to time. But the core thing here is that we have a consular responsibility for the million Australians who in any one year are offshore and a slice of those are in Indonesia and we have a responsibility to ensure that they know to the best extent that we can provide information about the security circumstances of where they are travelling or living abroad and we will continue to do that
MIDDLETON: So that's a no really isn't it?
PM: Well it's one of those things that you just suck it and see on the way through. The information we have available for government, they change during the course of the year, but the Officials in the government have a solemn responsibility which is to reflect our best information through to the travel advisories, so that the travelling public have access to that with the warnings which are posted. It is not just Indonesia that this applies to, there are many parts in the world, and I understand the difficulties which it can create but first responsibility is the Australian people
MIDDLETON: You're emissions trading expert, Ross Garnaut is about to deliver his interim report I understand, the suggestions are that he will recommend interim targets for Australia but wait and to see what China and India, for example, do before committing any further, is that an approach that takes your fancy?
PM: Well Ross Garnaut was commissioned by us in Opposition in the middle of last year to undertake a study about the economic impact of climate change on Australia, if we were to act on climate change or if we were to fail to act on climate change. The idea come from earlier work done by Sir Nicolas Stern for the government of the United Kingdom when he produced the Stern report on the impact of action and inaction on climate change for the global economy. This is our Australian ‘Stern report' in that respect. On the policy side of what Professor Garnaut's working on, he'll be one of many sources of advice to the government about how we move forward with a new regime on targets, how we design emissions trading and the rest. I look forward to receiving his report, but his is an independent report and we will deliberate on it, we might accept some of it, or reject other bits, but we are very keen to go through it and go through it thoroughly.
MIDDLETON: But there does seem to be some sense doesn't there in Australia having something up its sleeve, if countries like China and India don't act in good faith and don't take sufficient steps toward reducing greenhouse gas emissions?
PM: I've been very plain to our friends in Beijing and New Delhi that we need to see the Peoples Republic of China and India, full partners in the global cooperation which is now necessary to bring greenhouse gas emissions down. If you look at it quantitatively we cannot have an effective long term compact on this unless you have as participants the United States of America, the Peoples Republic of China and India. The maths speaks for itself in terms of emission quantums.
Therefore, the problem we face at present is the United States isn't on the cart. China and India, we need to have more on the cart, in order to produce a real global outcome. For two years ahead, and what President Yudhoyono kick started in Bali - the so called Bali Road Map - provide us with a negotiating opportunity with Beijing and New Delhi to work through some of these challenges.
I have made plain to my friends in China at least, and I haven't had the opportunity to do so in India, we want China to move to a position over time, accepting for itself, globally binding targets. We think that's important. While recognising China's particular circumstances as a developing country.
MIDDLETON: And to East Timor, a couple of days ago East Timor's foreign minister told me that Jose Ramos-Horta would be out of commission for up to 6 months. That's a bit of worry, creates a bit of a power vacuum possibly doesn't it?
PM: I think the remarkable thing about events in Dili so far and more broadly across Timor Leste - is that despite this huge assault on the body politic, with an attempt to assassinate the political leadership of the country, that the institutions of state and government, work remarkably well.
We had the PM Xanana Gusmao effectively take control, using constitutional provisions available to him. We had an acting president appointed, who was president of the national assembly and of course an acting president of the national assembly appointed from the constitutionally provided position there.
So the processes, including the declaration of (inaudible) or what we would call Marshall law, have all been adhered to constitutionally. As for the future, let's watch and pray that Jose has a good recovery. I was up in Darwin the other day. He wasn't conscious. But the doctors, for the first time were starting to - sound ok on this question - he is a good friend of mine and I look forward to his speediest recovery but I am confident the information I have at hand so far - the Government in Dili is performing well, in these very challenging circumstances.
MIDDLETON: Earlier this week you foreshadowed plans to go to China, and fairly soon. Is there any chance that will coincide with this year's Boao forum, which Hu Jintao has indicated that he will attend?
PM: Well I am going to go to China, sooner rather than later. In terms of the precise details of the timing I think we are still trying to bed that down with our friends in Beijing. I look forward to the opportunity of catching up with President Hu Jintao, whether it is in Boao or elsewhere.
We will sort that out in due course. The important thing is, to take our current relationship with China to a new level. I believe that the economic opportunities between us are significant. There is enormous resource in energy relationship between our two countries and we need to have a strategic discussion about that, long term - China's interest, our national interests.
But beyond that, where Australia also has enormous opportunities to pursue, if we can get proper trade access, for example, the financial services market, what we do in the area of biotechnology, what we do more broadly - in the sale of Australian education services. This wider services market is what I am keen for Australian businesses to have a greater access to. And in terms of our political relationship with the Chinese government, I look forward to catching up with some old friends and talking about the future.
MIDDLETON: In Mandarin no doubt.
PM: Maybe, maybe. (inaudible)
MIDDLETON: Indeed. China reacted sharply to John Howard's decision last year to ratify a security agreement with Japan. He suggested at the time that it could eventually be upgraded to a treaty. Is that reaction from Beijing the reason that you won't take that additional step?
PM: My attitude about trilateral relationships between Washington, Tokyo and Canberra haven't changed. They have not changed since the year dot. And that is, I welcome the current level of dialogue and cooperation between those three governments. But I believe that's where it most appropriately should stand, into the future.
When it comes to other proposals I have seen which is to somehow quadrilateralise this and involve India, I have also been very plain and blunt about the fact I don't think that's an appropriate direction for us to go at this stage.
MIDDLETON: Why not?
PM: I don't think our friends in New Delhi would particularly welcome that as well.
MIDDLETON: But it's the Chinese who are particularly antagonistic to it, describing it as encirclement and containment.
PM: Well there are a range of views in Beijing on this question. My view is, how do you unfold a future relationship with China which has got great economic opportunities (inaudible) on both sides of the ledger, for us and for the Chinese; develop further, our political dialogue with the Chinese on a whole range of areas; become genuine partners with China in the course of the 21st century. Big challenges, climate change, us working with China. Access to the Chinese services market, huge opportunity for Australian business.
Working with the Chinese on some of our common challenges in the wider Asia Pacific region, including the South Pacific. I think these are big things that we need to work together on. But is that enhanced or helped in any way but some sort of quadrilateral relationship with New Delhi? I don't think so.
But I say at the same time that I am absolutely determined to take our relationship with New Delhi from here to here, through injecting an enormous amount of effort into expanding our relationship with the sub continent. It is a relationship which many governments in the past have tried to accelerate and expand, and I don't make any particular criticism of predecessor governments, but I think we can do much better and I intend to do so.
MIDDLETON: You'd be aware of the talk in Tokyo of you as the Manchurian candidate, or in other words being -
PM: No, my Japanese is rotten, and I am aware of that.
MIDDELTON: - Being closer to Beijing than John Howard was. Surely you can see that your decision not to counter (inaudible) upgrading the security agreement to a treaty, also to end the four way dialogue - that is not going to ease suspicions in Tokyo is it?
PM: Well I believe that the quadrilateral arrangement, the four way dialogue is not being formally advanced by anybody. It is not a question of cancellation. It wasn't there to cancel. So it is not an active proposal from the Indian government, not an active proposal as I understand from the United States government and not an active proposal from the Japanese government. So it has been kicked around a bit but I am simply indicating quite firmly, I don't think it is a productive way to go given our current strategic circumstances.
As for our friends in Japan, Japan has been a long standing partner with Australia. I am an enormous respecter of what Japan has done in its engagement with the rest of the world. A force for stability in East Asia. The fact that you have got Japanese official development assistance out there assisting developing countries right across the region and beyond.
We partner with Japan in many projects around the world. This is a very good bilateral relationship and I look forward to it expanding into the future as well. You know something, foreign relations in East Asia, it's not a zero sum game. You can have a good relationship with Beijing, and have a very good relationship with our friends in Tokyo and in India and these don't cancel each other out. I think that's kind of like 19th Century von Clausewitz at work. It's not the way in which I think. I don't think it's the way a mature nation's state should think in the 21st century.
MIDDLETON: In July Japan is hosting the G8 summit, the word from Tokyo is that Mr Fukuda has suggested that you might like to attend as well. Is there any chance that you might go along?
PM: I would like very much to visit Japan at the earliest opportunity and we've been in discussion with our friends in Tokyo along those lines. As to the precise arrangements, I will leave that to the officials to sort out. I will look forward very much to catching up with Prime Minister Fukuda . A whole lot of questions we have got on the bilateral front with our friends in Japan - that includes the future of free trade agreement and negotiations with them and the sensitivities associated with it. But more broadly, how do we partner with Japan into the future as well, given Japan's enormous generosity in assisting developing countries get across the development divide. I am a great supporter of Japan's international efforts and I would like to be active partners in what they are doing in the developing world.
MIDDLETON: US Defence Secretary Robert Gates will be here shortly in Australia. The United States has F22 Raptors, that says they are for sale to foreigners. There are clearly problems with the last government's plan to buy Super Hornets to fill the gap until the joint strike fighter is up and running, would you consider asking Mr Gates whether Washington would sell the Raptor to Australia?
PM: What I have learnt, through long experience of defence policy questions, is to take the proper and considered advice of the experts. When it comes to the particular capabilities of the Raptor or any other category of American or any other aircraft on the market at present, I would much prefer to take the considered advice of the experts against the capability needs for the Royal Australian Air Force into the 21st Century.
Bob Gates is coming to Canberra, I am looking forward to catching up with him. We were going to put a prawn on the barbie and have him round to the Lodge. I think the Deputy Secretary of State Negroponte is travelling with him for the AUSMIN talks. They will be very welcome guests in Canberra. Very welcome guests at the Lodge and I promised the cat and the dog will be at home.
MIDDLETON: Do you think though that Australia has done enough in terms of support for the United States in the war on terror etcetera, that if we needed the Raptors, if the Super Hornets can't do the job, that the United States would come to the party?
PM: Again, you're question is based on a hypothetical premise about a particular defence acquisition - one not proceeding, or an alternative then proceeding. This is being handled by us in a very considered way. I have got to say, unlike our predecessors, these are serious acquisitions, you are not just dealing with the defence of the nation in the future, you are also dealing with the kit and capability which is available to our men and women in uniform. Whether it is a RAAF acquisition or a Naval acquisition or what is necessary for our Army to be deployed in the future as well. We take these processes seriously. We as a National Security Committee of the cabinet have sat for virtually an entire day on these matters, going through them in great detail. Because the decisions are very expensive in terms of the public dollar, very important in terms of the defence of Australia and very important for our men and women in uniform who have to use this equipment.
So I would much rather take it in a calm, methodical way rather than proceeding on hypothesis based on hypothesis.
MIDDLETON: Before we draw this to a close, the United States is in the midst of its election season. I can vividly recall when I was in Washington with John Howard 8 years ago, him cutting short a news conference, specifically so he could take a call from then candidate George W Bush. He was clearly more comfortable with a republican in the White House. Equally clearly, isn't it the case that you would be happier with a democrat?
PM: This is the Jim Middleton attempted news point of the evening. No Jim, I will accept the democratic decision of the American people.
MIDDELTON: But you do have personal links with quite senior people in the Democratic Party in the hierarchy. The Labor party has links with the democrats. It would be unnatural for you not to hope that Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton won in November.
PM:I have a stack of friends in the United States going back many, many, many years, both Republicans and Democrats. People on the Republican side who have served the current Bush administration and the previous Bush administration of George Bush senior, as well as of course many who have worked in the previous Clinton administration both in Defence and in the State Department and in other agencies of the United States government.
I am pretty relaxed about the seasoned and considered outcome of the American people. The great thing about the alliance is that, let's never forget, it has survived, prospered and expanded after 12 or 13 Australian Prime Ministers, Labor and Liberal, 12 or 13 American Presidents, Republican and Democrat. No side of politics has its paw uniquely on the fabric of this alliance. We have both been contributors to it. And whoever is elected as the next President of the United States, I look forward to working well with them into the future.
MIDDLETON:Will you see either Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton when you do visit the United States later this year?
PM:It depends on the season. If the candidates, Republican and Democrats are out in the field, hustling for votes and in very recent memory I know how intense a business that can be. But I imagine their focus legitimately would be about how they maximise their own positions in the domestic electoral process. But we have good relations with both the major political parties in the United States and many, many people in the Congress and elsewhere.
Recently, Therese and I were pleased to host a couple of visiting US delegations at Kirribilli and these were Republicans and Democrats. People that we have known for a while and people that we had met for the first time. There is a great deal of commonality in the overall interests of our two countries. And a great deal of warmth in the relationship between the political establishment of this country and the political establishment of that country. And I think that is good for the Australian national interest.
MIDDLETON:Prime Minister, thanks for breaking into a very busy schedule to speak to us on Newshour
PM:Pleased to be here.