Subject:
workplace relations, water, cricket.
E&OE...
KELLY:
In the past, Labor's fought hard to retain the Industrial Relations Commissions, now it wants to scrap it and replace it with a new body called Fair Work Australia. Labor says this will create a new, flexible, industrial umpire, and a one-stop shop for workers and employers. But the Federal Government says Labor's plan will hand control back to the trade unions. Well the Prime Minister joins us now from Melbourne, Prime Minister, welcome again to breakfast.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Fran.
KELLY:
Prime Minister has Labor stolen your clothes here, taken your Fair Pay Commission and expanded it into Fair Work Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I think what Labor is doing is engaging in a political response in cahoots with the union movement to give the impression of modernity. This announcement was made on the 7.30 Report last night in a pre-recorded package that included an endorsement from Greg Combet, it's the clearest evidence that this whole thing was driven by the union movement. There was no pre-recorded comment from anybody in business.
KELLY:
Sure, but what's the issue here, why do you say this hands powers to the unions, because with WorkChoices you gutted the Australian Industrial Relations Commission, you took its wage fixing powers away, you handed them to the new body called the Fair Pay Commission - Fair Pay Commission, Fair Work Australia, what's going to be the difference significantly?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'll tell you why I say that Fran is that if you abolish existing bodies, you abolish the people who are on them and that gives you an opportunity to appoint a whole group of new people.
KELLY:
And what's the problem with that, don't all governments tend to do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'll tell you what the problem of that is, that those people will be hand-picked by the union bosses. Now that's the problem, and you talk about the Fair Pay Commission, there are five people on the Fair Pay Commission.
KELLY:
Including one unionist.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, including one unionist, including one person in small business who has been highly successful and has a wonderful workplace background including Patrick McClure from the welfare sector who used to run Mission Australia and two economists. Now that is the sort of variety that would disappear if this new body comes into operation.
KELLY:
But we don't know that though do we, we've heard Julia Gillard say it's likely to include lawyers.
PRIME MINISTER:
We do know that because this policy is clearly being cooked up in cooperation with the union and you say it doesn't matter that the whole thing was announced in a package pre-recorded with Greg Combet, I think most people think that does matter. I mean they are so close that it's effectively a joint announcement.
KELLY:
Sorry...
PRIME MINISTER:
Now hang on Fran, if they were operating at arms length from the ACTU that wouldn't be the case but no, we have announcement cosily made, pre-recorded on Anzac night, announced by the shadow minister and immediately in the same pre-recording it's endorsed by the ACTU and you are asking me and the Australian public to believe that it's not what the unions want, come on Fran you can't possible fall for that.
KELLY:
Well what I am saying is that the reporter, who got the announcement, went out and got a response from the obvious group which would be the union group.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there you go, you say the obvious group. Why is the union movement the obvious group?
KELLY:
Because the union movement has been very critical of the federal, of your government for stripping away the powers of the IR...
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, you've given it away with that comment, the obvious group, of course that is exactly how the Labor Party operates, the union movement is the obvious group. Because, the assumption behind that statement is that the union movement has some pre-eminent right to determine policy in this area, irrespective of the fact that it only represents 15 per cent of employees in the private sector and irrespective of the fact that there are other people on the planet in relation to these matters, other than union bosses. Fran this is not about good policy, this is a political device to give the impression of modernity, but in reality, it will hand back even greater power to union bosses in a centralised body, it's all about the politics of industrial relations, it's not to do with the substance. It doesn't address the fact that the Labor Party will bring back unfair dismissal laws, a nightmare for small business, it doesn't alter the fact that AWAs are going to be abolished. I mean you list all of the things that this body will deal with; one of them very prominently displayed is the enforcement of the new unfair dismissal regime. Well I think that small businessmen worried about Labor's policy before last night would be even more worried about it because they fear that unfair dismissal would be handed back to a body that would be even more dominated by union bosses.
KELLY:
There's no doubt that this goes further in winding back your WorkChoices legislation, but just on the make up of this body, I mean we heard the shadow IR minister Julia Gillard say it's going to include lawyers, business people - I mean union bosses are people just like anybody else.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes well I am not objecting to a proportion of union bosses, but Fran the effect of this announcement will be, except for the one or two people who have the security of judicial office, all the other commissioners will lose their jobs, because if you abolish the body, you abolish the members of that body and it will give the Labor Party an open hand in government to appoint to this body. You say all governments do that, well frankly no because we didn't abolish the Industrial Relations Commission when we came to power.
KELLY:
No, but you re-appointed... you stripped away much of its power when you appointed...
PRIME MINISTER:
Hold on, hold on. For a large number of years under our Government, the Industrial Relations Commission continue to exercise very significant power and the point I make is there were of course like any other government as appointments arose, we replaced them with suitable people, but what this will do in one fell swoop, is wipe out a whole group of people and you are not going to tell me, given that he cooked it up in cahoots with Julia Gillard, that Greg Combet won't dictate who the people are going to be.
KELLY:
Talking about the politics of this, doesn't it really acknowledge in one fell swoop that you know, it wipes away the final imagery of any kind of centralised wage-fixing in this country?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I think the reverse. You say it wipes away centralisation, you are going to centralise the powers of a number of bodies into one. It's the direct opposite of what you just said.
KELLY:
Labor says it will be a flexible one-stop shop?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well let's just look at the objective evidence. You have got a number of bodies which are going to be abolished and their powers are all going to be centralised in the hands of newly appointed people under a policy which has clearly been concocted in cahoots with the union movement.
KELLY:
Prime Minister can we go to the issue of water now. Obviously it's an acute problem in this country at the moment. Your announcement last week I think it was indicates that again, underlines that again. On the question of water, Victoria, the Victorian Government won't budge on your $10 billion rescue plan for the Murray-Darling. How do you break this impasse? Even the Victorian farmers are critical of your plan. Will you compromise?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you say the Victorian Government won't budge. That wasn't what Mr Bracks told me the last time we discussed this matter. I am sorry to have to say that Mr Bracks is playing something of a double game. When he has private conversations with me, he indicates that the Victorian Government is reconsidering its position and yet he goes out and says something to the opposite. Now I think the Victorian Government has got to tell the Australian public, let alone me, he's got to tell the Australian public that whether or not it will agree to hand over its powers and therefore allow Victorians to participate in the $10 billion that we have made available. Now this is the biggest single investment in water security ever made or proposed by a national government. The plan will not work unless the power is transferred to the Commonwealth because the old cooperative model which Victoria still perseveres in supporting, just has broken down. I've got the support of New South Wales and Queensland and South Australia but for reasons that escape me, because all the assurances sought by Victoria have been given, and if I am wrong in relation to that I would appreciate Mr Bracks publicly, not otherwise saying what assurances reasonably sought by Victoria, reasonably sought, have not been given.
KELLY:
So are you saying that after your private talks with the Premier you're confident...?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no well I am not. What I am telling you is that he has told me privately that you know, he is looking at coming on board and just give him a bit more time and you know he then goes out and says something to the contrary. Well I mean this is a silly sort of game. I mean my position in public is the same as my position in private. It's in the Australian national interest that we have a national scheme. It's the only one that will work.
KELLY:
Prime Minister, you've got the farm leaders from around the country meeting you tomorrow on wheat. Cabinet has met on this already. Will you let AWB have the veto for the coming harvest?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we have a proposal to discuss with the farm leaders and I am...
KELLY:
Is that the proposal?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I am not going to disclose what we are discussing with the farm leaders until I have disclosed it to the farm leaders. The courteous thing to do with these issues, if you want to win the confident support of people is to actually talk to them about what you have in mind and get their view, and when we get their views, we're going to have a further discussion, and then we will make an announcement of the Government's position. It's quite a difficult issue this. I am not pretending otherwise. We did have an examination made of the attitude of wheat growers and it was led by a very respected business figure John Ralph. And it reported essentially two things; it reported that about 70 per cent of wheat growers wanted to retain a single desk, but only about 20 per cent of them wanted that single desk to be held by AWB. I understand both of those things. I don't think there are many people that are arguing that we should go immediately to full deregulation, but people in very significant numbers told us that the exact status quo would be hard to support.
KELLY:
Okay. Prime Minister just finally, I have got a hunch you've got a view about how Australia will go when it meets Sri Lankans in the final of the World Cup on Sunday now that we've beaten the South Africans?
PRIME MINISTER:
I would be amazed if Australia didn't win, I mean this is an incredibly consistently and strong Australian team and the ease with which we defeated South Africa a few hours ago is a very good omen but the Sri Lankans have been fantastic battlers in one day cricket so I am sure Ricky Ponting will be telling his men not to be complacent, because that is one of the reasons why he keeps winning. He never takes things for granted and nobody should do that in sport or indeed anything else.
KELLY:
Yes, a characteristic you have in common. Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us on breakfast.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay, thanks.
KELLY:
Prime Minister John Howard.