Subjects: Victorian election; terrorism; international law; handguns; Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir; Australia Day; Santa; Alison Carabine.
E&OE...........
MITCHELL:
In our Sydney studio, the Prime Minister. Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL:
Are you looking forward to working with Steve Bracks?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';ll work with whoever is made Premier of Victoria by the people of Victoria.
MITCHELL:
To be honest, it';s not going to be a disaster for Victoria if he gets back, is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Victoria would be better if it had a change of Government. I believe that Robert Doyle would make a good Premier. The polls indicate a very big win for Labor. That wouldn';t in anybody';s language, even I guess in the assessment of devout Labor supporters, be a good thing. It';s never a good thing for there to be a landslide, a huge win, particularly when a Government has only been in power for a short period of time. Perhaps if there is a change of Government after a long period of rule by the other side, a landslide can sometimes be hard to avoid but I don';t think these days giving governments that have been in power for one term and have essentially kept the car on idle, rather than the foot on the accelerator, I don';t think giving them a landslide is a good thing for the next three or four years.
MITCHELL:
We know who you hope will win, but who do you think will win?
PRIME MINISTER:
I am not a political commentator. I';m a leader. I leave that to the people of Victoria.
MITCHELL:
Do you believe Victoria has been easy on the unions in the time that Steve Bracks has been [inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
Of all the State Governments, and they';re all Labor now…
MITCHELL:
Yes, you must be a bit lonely at those meetings.
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh well, it';s a challenging, competitive atmosphere. I don';t mind. When I first became Prime Minister, the very first meeting I chaired, there was only one person there who is still there and that is Bob Carr.
MITCHELL:
Sorry, I asked you about unions.
PRIME MINISTER:
The unions. I don';t think there';s any doubt at all that of all of the State Governments around Australia, Victoria is easier on the unions and the relationship is closer and therefore the influence of the union movements the greater. These things should always be looked at in a measured, sensible way. There is not much doubt that unions do have more muscle in Victoria. They can get more out of the Bracks Government than they can get out of say the Beattie Government in Queensland or the Carr Government in New South Wales. I would say Victoria and Western Australia in that order are the two states where the incumbent Government is the softer touch when it comes to the muscle of the union movement, and my fear is that if Labor wins again tomorrow, if those polls are right, then that process will accelerate over the next four years. That';s really the point that I was making a few days ago when I was in Melbourne and it';s a point I make again this morning. It';s a question of looking at the facts. I';m not saying that the State is going to close down if the Labor Government gets re-elected. That';s silly. Nobody is alleging that. But what I do say is that a reelected Labor Government, particularly one with a big majority, would be more likely to do what the unions want it to do than they have over the last four years – well over the last three years – and over the last three years they have been more submissive than other Labor Governments. So it';s really just a question of in a calm way building a logical argument against the sort of outcome that the polls are predicting, being in the best interests of Victoria, because plainly it won';t be.
MITCHELL:
I apologise for getting a bit of noise there. We';re trying to fix the problem on the line. I suppose one of the things we should always be celebrating though – we';re going into a democratic process and we know that whatever happens, we';ll have a democratic result next week. Which brings me to terrorism – would you expect these attacks in Africa are engineered by al Qaeda?
PRIME MINISTER:
Neil I don';t have any independent intelligence advice on that yet. I expect to get some today. But there is a pattern which indicates that al Qaeda is probably involved. That';s the view of Kenyan Ministers, it';s the view of the Israelis. They';re planned, they tend to do things in twos and threes. Certainly it';s got the ingredients, sophisticated planning, the timing of two incidents, focused attack on this occasion Israelis. Although plainly again more Kenyan lives than Israeli lives. Just as in 1998 when the American Embassy was destroyed in Kenya there were hundreds of Kenyans killed and something like 19 or 20 Americans. I mean any death is tragic but the point I make again is that in the process of killing westerners and killing Israelis, the terrorists also take the lives of an enormously large number of citizens of other countries as well.
MITCHELL:
It does make you wonder if Israelis are going to be targets around the world, doesn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the Israelis have been targets around the world for years. The Israelis have been targets ever since their country came into existence. What people tend to forget is the history, that in 1948 when Israel was created, its country was given birth in the face of an all out attack from its Arab neighbours and Israel in a sense has been struggling for survival ever since. That doesn't mean that there isn't a legitimate case incidentally for a Palestinian homeland, I support that very strongly. And we need through all of this to redouble our efforts of countries to try and get, however hard it looks, to get some kind of enduring settlement. But let's remember that for many Arab countries, Israel has never been legitimate and has never been accepted.
MITCHELL:
Do you think we're looking possibly at a Christmas terror offensive? There's a certain symbolism behind many of the terrorist attacks, we are heading into the Christmas period. Is that what we're looking at?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Neil I hope not. It's very important that somebody in my position gives a sensible, measured account of what is the known and predictable risk and threat. But I'm not going to indulge myself in chance random predictions. I don't want to depress people any more than a lot of people are at the present time.
MITCHELL:
I just think it's important that people… I'd be interested in your view on that [inaudible] depression, but there's certainly an air of tension and an air of unpleasant anticipation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well people are certainly apprehensive. There is certainly a different mood in the country now than was the case before the 12th of October and it's got even more pronounced in the last few weeks. I do think people will adjust to it. We have to and I'm asking people to do that. I'm asking people to accept we are living in a tenser, more apprehensive, potentially more dangerous environment. We will have to accept some delays and restrictions that we wouldn't normally like to. On the other hand, I do not want people to stop enjoying themselves. I don't want them to stop enjoying Christmas, I know that won't. I want them to to keep going to events. It's a very difficult balance to strike and whatever I say, I will always feel as inadequate to quite capture and express the mood I would like the community to take on themselves. I want them to be alert and to understand the world is different, but I don't want them to lose the essentially, pretty carefree, open Australian way of life - I don't think anybody wants that to happen.
MITCHELL:
Will you be taking holidays yourself this year?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, yes. I'll have some time off over Christmas. I normally take a few weeks off in January, but I'll be staying in Sydney. And although Mr Anderson and Mr Costello will be sharing the Acting Prime Ministerial duties, and Mr Anderson to start with and then he has a bit of a break and then Peter Costello takes over from him. I will be around and in touch and if needed back on the job straight away.
MITCHELL:
Are you staying in Sydney deliberately for that reason?
PRIME MINISTER:
I normally stay in Sydney. I spend so much time travelling around during the year, and particularly this year. And I've had to go overseas more than ever before. I will stay and watch the New Year Test and generally take it easy and read some books, but I certainly won't be out of contact with things and if anything at all occurs that requires my being back on the job, I will be within minutes.
MITCHELL:
…on standby.
PRIME MINISTER:
Don't worry about that. I'm certainly not leaving the jurisdiction.
MITCHELL:
The Philippines Embassy, is it possible at other embassies, Australian embassies around the world, may have to take some more action?
PRIME MINISTER:
If we get threats of the kind we got in relation to the Philippines Embassy, yes.
MITCHELL:
[Inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
No. It was a very explicit threat. It was so explicit, I rang Alexander Downer immediately I saw the assessment and he said, I've already given instructions to close the embassy.
MITCHELL:
What about a department of home security? Are you still looking at that? Some sort of…
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm looking at just a number of things in that area. I'm not somebody who thinks he should automatically pick up what the Americans do in these things. What works in America doesn't necessarily work in Australia and vice versa. We're a different sized country. Our security services do a very good job. I did say that after the 12th of October we would not only have the inspector general look at all the material, which he's still doing, to determine whether there was anything more that could have been passed on and the indications are to date that there wasn't. I also said that I'd look at whether the existing administrative structure and so forth were appropriate and that examination goes on. I don';t think there's anything fundamentally wrong or inadequate with the individual services, whether they can be organised in a different fashion is obviously something that we're looking at.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, do you agree with the Defence Minister Robert Hill that the international law needs to be changed so self-defence can be… a pre-emptive strike can be justified under self-defence in these circumstances?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think what Robert was saying was both interesting and right. He said that when the United Nations charter was written and when a lot of the international law under which we now operate was developed, the whole notion of an attack was that you would be attacked by a country. When World War II broke out, it broke out because Germany invaded Poland and Britain and France gave an ultimatum to Berlin to withdraw their troops from Poland, and said if you don';t do so within so many hours a state of war will exist between us. Now that is how it all worked then. Their armies mobilised. Now what Robert is saying, quite correctly, is that the sort of warfare we';re now engaged in involved what happened last night potentially in Kenya. Now clearly a body of international law is developed to deal with the sort of World War II breakout, and that essentially were the conditions under which the United Nations charter was written, is not necessarily as flexible and as appropriate as current circumstances require. I think that';s the point he was making.
MITCHELL:
Okay we';ll take a quick break here and come back with more different issues for the Prime Minister.
[commercial break]
MITCHELL:
The Prime Minister is in our Sydney studio. Handguns Prime Minister. Three States opposing your guns laws. I noticed you have put a curse on them. Now what will you do to get the laws through?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I';m getting advice on whether there are things that we can do to force this issue to a head if the States continue to drag their feet. I';m extremely disappointed. The public wants tougher gun laws. The public wants all guns outlawed except those that are properly required to be possessed and used in relation to the Commonwealth and Olympic Games sporting events. So they're quite happy to have a carve out for that and we';ve worked very hard to have one of those. Not one that allows too much flexibility of the margins but one that';s acceptable to genuine sporting shooters but is also one that delivers a lot of protection to the community. And I can';t for the life of me understand why the States appear to be dragging their feet on this.
MITCHELL:
The next question – what';s the problem? Why don';t they want…
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t know. I really don';t know. Maybe they think there';s some political mileage in being tough with the Feds. I mean this is childish stuff. The public interest is involved here and just as we were able to get a uniform agreement between the Federal Liberal Government and eight State and Territory Labor Governments on stem cell research, surely we can get a similar agreement across the political divide on something like this.
MITCHELL:
Well there';s not much point to national gun laws is there, if they';re not going to follow them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course there aren';t. I hope common sense prevails between now and next Friday. Next Friday there is a meeting in Canberra, which I will chair, of myself and the six State Premiers and two Territory leaders. And I hope by then everybody will have come to the party and we can walk out of that meeting – the Prime Minister and the six State Premiers of Australia – saying we have agreed, across the political divide, we have agreed to deliver a safer Australian community.
MITCHELL:
We';ll take some calls for the Prime Minister if we get time – 9696 1278. Prime Minister, the Malaysian Prime Minister Dr Mahathir is attacking Australia almost on a daily basis, almost running a hate campaign against this country. What';s your response to this?
PRIME MINISTER:
I have taken the view for a long time that it';s better to let a lot of those comments go over one';s shoulder. Comments are sometimes made by people to attract a rebuke and thereby give further fuel to the fire. Our bilateral relationship with Malaysia at other levels is very strong. We have very good people to people links. We have very good economic links. We have quite good security links and good military links. And in the long run those sorts of links are more important than people who currently occupy political leadership in indeed either of the two countries.
MITCHELL:
Would you agree it';s a bit unfortunate in this environment though to have this sort of level of argument?
PRIME MINISTER:
There are a lot of things I regard as unfortunate. The way you handle them and the way you react is a question of political and leadership judgment, and I';ve made a judgment about the best way to handle this stuff.
MITCHELL:
We';ll take a quick call. Brett, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Yeah g';day, I';d like to talk to Mr Howard if I could.
MITCHELL:
You';re doing so, go ahead.
CALLER:
John, look I';d like to know why you want to ban, I';m the current state champion, I';m a pistol shooter, I';m a current state champion in one discipline and you want to take my firearms away from me but I am the Vic state champion in that discipline.
MITCHELL:
What firearm is it Brett?
CALLER:
It';s a revolver. It';s a 38 special revolver.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t want to stop you doing whatever is necessary in relation to the possession and use of that gun to continue to participate in your sport, I don';t want to do that.
CALLER:
But you are going to take it away.
PRIME MINISTER:
You';ll still be able to participate, there';ll be certain conditions imposed but we won';t prevent you from participating in your sport. That';s not the intention.
CALLER:
But how can taking my pistol away from me make the community a safer place?
PRIME MINISTER:
But I don';t accept the assertion that we';re going to stop you participating in your sport.
MITCHELL:
So a 38 special would not be banned?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I';m not a firearms expert but the criteria we';re using is that weapons which are recognised as being required for and involved in competitive shooting of the Commonwealth/Olympic Games type are not going to be banned to the extent that they';re needed and used in training and participation in those sports.
MITCHELL:
Okay, thanks Brett. Prime Minister the Australia Day committee in Victoria wants businesses to fly the flag and show employers as a lead up to Australia Day, do you agree we need some sort of unifying symbol, maybe…
PRIME MINISTER:
I think that will happen, I endorse, I applaud what the Australia Day Committee in Victoria is saying. The Australian flag is displayed far more widely now then ever before and I predict now that Australia Day next year will be more strongly supported and will involve more Australians in all sorts of events and as an expression of Australian nationalism than any Australia Day in recent memory. I don';t think there';s any doubt about that, I think you';ll need to go back to Australia Day 1988 to find an Australia Day that will be as widely celebrated. There is, I sense in the community, a continuing upsurge of confidence, sensible, yet passionate Australian nationalism.
MITCHELL:
Hmmm. We';ll take another call, Neil, go ahead please Neil.
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes Neil.
CALLER:
You keep saying, making the statement about national gun laws, I';m a sporting shooter, have been for some, nearly 40 years, I';m a competitive shooter, not so much these days. I can';t take my firearm and my gun from Melbourne, sorry in my car, when I travel around Australia, the firearm laws are so different in each state it';s almost impossible.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that';s an argument for what I';m trying to do. I want nationally uniform firearm laws, I don';t have any patience for state borders and state differences in things like this. State differences are legitimate in some areas but when it comes to something where quite plainly there';s an interest in having an Australia wide law or an Australia wide prohibition or an Australia wide practice and my view is that the states should get together with the Commonwealth and agree. People are, we were talking a moment ago about Australian nationalism, one expression of Australian nationalism I find particularly amongst young people is an increasing impatience with the idea that because you happen to live on with or other side of a state border things should be different. Young Australians regard that with contempt and rightly so.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister just getting some details on that caller Brett and that 38 special, now that';s not an Olympic sport nor is it a Commonwealth Games sport, they have these sort of club sports where they use these different weapons. Will the club sports be…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the intention, as I say I don';t pretend to be a firearms' expert but the restrictions are, as I have been informed in the discussions that have taken place, the restrictions are within the ambit for, as based on the notion that participation in training for Commonwealth Games/Olympic Games and other internationally recognised…
MITCHELL:
Just not club sports.
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
MITCHELL:
Okay. Prime Minister, there';s a question, I spoke to Peter Costello yesterday and I asked him and he didn';t want to answer it but he eventually did but I imagine you won';t want to answer it either but do you believe in Santa?
PRIME MINISTER:
I believe in Santa, I do believe in Santa and I think one of the wonderful things about childhood is a belief in that. I';m not longer a child but I believed in Santa when I was a kid and Santa is for children so therefore I believe in Santa.
MITCHELL:
We had here some cases of kindergartens banning Santa here because it was culturally inappropriate which I just found bizarre.
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely ridiculous and can I say that any childcare centre, any kindergarten that does that is being foolishly slavish to political correctness, I cannot for the life me understand that any canon of tolerance in this country requires us to abandon Santa. Nor indeed do I find the practice of some department stores now have now longer having Nativity scenes as part of their Christmas displays.
MITCHELL:
And have you…
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t find that very impressive either, I find that a cave in to political correctness as well.
MITCHELL:
And have you discussed the leadership privately with Peter Costello?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I';ve got nothing more to say on that subject than I';ve said before.
MITCHELL:
Decision time next year?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well everybody knows what I';ve said.
MITCHELL:
Now Alison Carabine, the head of our Canberra bureau won a Wakeley award, do you know where she was trained?
PRIME MINISTER:
In 3AW studios.
MITCHELL:
The Mitchell programme.
PRIME MINISTER:
The Mitchell programme? Well can I say she';s a great journalist, a very nice person and she was with me in Washington on the 11th of September last year.
MITCHELL:
That';s right.
PRIME MINISTER:
And congratulations Alison, you';ve done a fantastic job and we all respect you in my office.
MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay.
[ends]