Subjects: Four year terms; Unfair Dismissal Laws; Middle East; illegal immigrants; child sex abuse; Australian war graves; Queen Mother';s funeral; John Brogden.
E&OE...........
PRICE:
Good morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Steve.
PRICE:
How far did you go today?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, about half… 35 minutes. A fast walk around the harbour. It was very good.
PRICE:
Great way to start the day.
PRIME MINISTER:
It is. There were a lot of people out too, it';ll be a beautiful Sydney day when a bit of the fog clears.
PRICE:
Four year terms. You are in favour?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I';m in favour of them, yes. I think it would be better Government if you had slightly longer. But I';m not somebody who regards it as the most important priority. My belief is that people are interested more in the quality of Government than they are in the length of the Government, and I wouldn';t want to give the impression to the Australian people that I have a major preoccupation with extending the time that I';m in office or my Party is in office. I want to focus on doing things that are in their interest and are for their benefit. But all things being equal, if we had four year terms it would be better. It';s something that we';ll think about, we won';t get preoccupied with, and if we think it';s appropriate then we';ll put it up at some stage. But it';s not the most important thing to me, and I';m more focused on the day to day job of delivering good Government.
PRICE:
Certainly gives you the opportunity to… to unfold your plans for the country though, and to give you a real… realistic chance to make the way you want it to run work.
PRIME MINISTER:
It does give you that, although I';d have to say over the last six years the difficulty that we';ve had doing things we think should have been done, has not come from a lack of four year terms, but has come from the blocking tactics of the Labor Party and the Democrats in the Senate. For example, helping small business by getting rid of the Unfair Dismissal Laws which prevent the generation of a lot of jobs in small business. That';s been blocked so many times in the Senate, I';ve lost count. And it';s that kind of thing more than the absence of four year terms that has prevented the Government doing some of the longer term things it would like to do.
PRICE:
You';re determined to get that through, and you';ve indeed said that if you don';t, you will use it as an election trigger.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, no what I';ve said is I';ll put it back again, which can in some circumstances create what you';ve said. But I';m not looking for another election.
PRICE:
No, I bet you';re not. Neither are we. Neither are we.
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m sure you';re not. We';ve only had one six months ago.
PRICE:
How important will that change be to the small business people listening to us out there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Put my advice aside. The small business organisations talk about generating 30, 40, 50,000 new jobs in small business. It';s the fear of getting into a legal tangle with somebody who you put on and who doesn';t work out. It discourages people from putting them on in the first place. I mean it';s all very well for big companies. They can afford to pay somebody off, they can afford to compromise, settle 20, 30, $40,000. Nothing to them. But if you';re running a small business, you';re running right to the wire and you don';t make a lot of money, and you know, you';re lucky after working seven days a week, 90, 100 hours a week. You';re lucky to make 70 or $80,000 if that. You can';t afford that.
PRICE:
You';ve had… you';ve had a big involvement in recent times with international politics. Can I just ask you about the Middle East. We now have the situation where Colin Powell has returned to the US without being able to broker a ceasefire. Are you concerned at the way that Israel is conducting itself currently?
PRIME MINISTER:
Everybody is concerned about what';s happened. There';s a situation where you can';t blame one side exclusively. I don';t blame Israel for the current situation any more than I blame the other side. I mean you have to remember that Israel is reacting, certainly I';ve described it as an overreaction, to the suicide bombing. But if people walk in… somebody walks into a hotel in the middle of Sydney with bombs strapped around their waist and blows themselves and 20 or 30 people with them to smithereens, what does a nation do? It';s very natural that you will over… you will react to that. And that is what the Israelis have done, but I have to also say that we want restraint on both sides. I don';t, I';m not saying it';s all the fault of the Palestinians, but I don';t think it';s reasonable to imply that it is predominantly the fault of the Israelis. There is blame on both sides. It is a great tragedy that a couple of years ago we were very close to peace. I actually went to see the Israeli Prime Minister of the time Ehud Barak, and then I travelled down to Ramallah to see Yasser Arafat and at that time hopes were very high. I took with me senior members of the Jewish community from Australia and they encouraged me to go and see Arafat and everybody felt we were close and Barak offered the Palestinians 80 to 90 percent of what they wanted, and that offer was not accepted. I still believe that if that offer had been accepted, we would now have peace and it was the most generous offer that an Israeli Prime Minister had ever made. I don';t believe an Israeli Prime Minister now or in the immediate future is going to be able politically to make that kind of offer to the Palestinians again. Now…
PRICE:
You must be dismayed when you see the rubble that now is Ramallah, where you';ve been there.
PRIME MINISTER:
It is awful and the tragedy is that there was so much hope at that particular time. I remember meeting the young children in the area immediately around Ramallah, the young Palestinian children, and they were well fed, they were bright kids, they were happy, and they were obviously living in very difficult circumstances, very cramped conditions. But there was a sense of hope around at the time and incidentally, Australian aid workers were doing a fantastic job with the Palestinians, both medically and otherwise. And everybody seemed so full of hope and all of that is gone, and it is tragic. I don';t believe that you should see Powell';s mission as a permanent failure at all. I think he made some progress and it would be wrong to write it off as a complete failure. I never believed, and I don';t think he probably believed, that he was going to achieve a settlement through one visit. I think he has laid the groundwork for something that may materialise a bit more in the future. I wouldn';t be quite as pessimistic about his visit as some people have been.
PRICE:
Back here, the asylum seekers issue continues to cause some difficulties. Last night, claims made on the ABC that up to a third of the asylum seekers on Manus Island are suffering from Malaria. That the place is not the sort of place where these people should be kept, and indeed there';s now a constitutional challenge in New Guinea to the New Guinea Government being able to keep people on Manus Island. Are we going to have to take those people back out of there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that';s not our intention. On the question of malaria, my advice is that there have been some cases, but nowhere near one third. And from recollection, I saw a lot of the programme although I was interrupted by a phone call which I had to take. My recollection is that Philip Ruddock denied the allegation of one-third on the programme. As far as the constitutional challenge is concerned well that';s action being taken in Papua New Guinea by people who are opposed to what the PNG Government has done, that';s a matter for the PNG Government, a matter for the courts, I';m not going to presume to offer a view on a constitutional case in another country. We negotiated an arrangement with the PNG Government, we thought it was a sensible thing to do, we stand by that. I believe the so-called pacific solution has worked effectively, you only have to look at the change in the number of arrivals. We haven';t had any new arrivals now for months. Now I';m not saying that is going to continue indefinitely, I quickly add that.
PRICE:
Weather does play a part in it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes but there';s more than that Steve. I think that a couple of years ago in the five months period you had something like 2600, I think it fell to 1300 last year and this year it';s been close to zero. So there has been a change and it';s not just due to the weather although the weather does play a part in it. Now I';m cautiously optimistic that the policy is working but I';m not going to guarantee that it will continue like that for good.
PRICE:
ABC also claimed this week that our defence forces used cattle prods to move people off defence ships.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that was emphatically denied both by Senator Hill, also by the head of the Air Force who was at various times acting head of the Defence Force, Air Marshall Houston. I think he denied that before the Senate inquiry. But that';s my understanding. But look whoever it was on behalf of the Defence Forces denied it, it';s been empathically denied and just on my advice did not happen. I defend completely the action taken by the Navy and our Defence Forces in very difficult circumstances. I thought what that ABC programme earlier this week, Four Corners, demonstrated just how hard a job our sailors have.
PRICE:
Oh I think that video showed exactly how tough it is being on that boat.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t think the video proved the case the ABC programme was trying to make. I think the visual evidence was against the story line, it ran completely counter to the story line. I thought they did incredibly well. I mean I think they deserve our praise. This is a difficult issue and if your borders are to be protected from people who seek to come here illegally we really have nobody else to use except the Defence Forces. People make these odd claims in my view that it is in some way politicising the Defence Forces to use them to keep out illegal immigrants. Who else do you use?
PRICE:
Would you prefer Peter Reith to appear before that Senate inquiry?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';ve said before in answer to that question that that';s a matter for him. He';s no longer…
PRICE:
Don';t we deserve to know though?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is a matter, the question of whether he appears is a matter for him. If he decides to appear that';s fine by me. If he decides not to appear than that';s equally fine…
PRICE:
Isn';t that a weakness Prime Minister in our system? I mean what you';re really saying there if you';re a serving politician and you leave office then you are no longer responsible for what you did when you';re in office.
PRIME MINISTER:
No the question of whether he appears is something that I can no longer control. That';s the point I';m making. I can no longer control him. He';s not a member of my Cabinet anymore, he';s departed.
PRICE:
Do you have a view on whether he should appear?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I';ve expressed that, that is a matter for him. If he was still a member…
PRICE:
But that';s not you having a view.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hang on, let me finish. If he was a still a Member of Parliament, if he was still a Minister he would not appear before the inquiry in accordance with a long standing convention that was strongly supported by the Labor Party when it was in office.
PRICE:
Yes. But that still doesn';t give me an indication of whether…
PRIME MINISTER:
But part of your question…
PRICE:
… whether Labor were right or wrong, I mean you don';t go around copying what Labor does too often.
PRIME MINISTER:
No but the point I';m making to you is that his position, now that he';s no longer a Member of Parliament is for him to decide. I can';t tell him to. He';s left politics, he has provided, whenever matters have been raised, he has provided answers and responses, he did give detailed statements to the inquiries that were conducted. And let';s not for a moment pretend that this Senate inquiry is an independent impartial operation. I mean it is dominated by an anti-government majority, it was set up for the purpose of embarrassing the Government.
PRICE:
But they';re probably doing what you would do if it was in reverse.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean that';s a hypothetical question, we';re not in that position. This is an exercise purely and simply in trying to politically damage the Government. It has tied up the time of a large number of people in the Defence Forces.
PRICE:
Isn';t it an exercise in trying to work out exactly what happened that day?
PRIME MINISTER:
It';s an exercise in trying to embarrass the Government because it hasn';t really to date, and it';s now been going for a long time, it hasn';t produced anything additional in substance to what was known some time ago.
PRICE:
24 past seven, we';re talking to the Prime Minister. You said something publicly yesterday that I found very sad and it struck an absolute nerve with me because I';ve got two young daughters and given my working time now I';m often on my own with them in the playground. You made the point that if you';re out publicly with children now you almost have to have a second think about whether someone thinks you should be there with those children.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean…
PRICE:
That';s paraphrasing what you said.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean I don';t feel that way but I was responding to a comment that had been made to me that a teacher had said to one of your fellow journalists on radio, look, I think it was Philip Clark, the teacher said look I';m almost afraid to touch children because of this concern about child abuse, and I said how terrible that was and my natural reaction as I wander around the community if you';re introduced to little child you pick it up and give it a cuddle and I';ll go on doing that. I don';t care, whatever, of course I';ll go on doing that.
PRICE:
It';s also isn';t it that we feel like that?
PRIME MINISTER:
I made this comment in the context of this argument about having a royal commission into child abuse and I was arguing that although there is a lot more scrutiny of child abuse now and we must take every measure we possibly can to stamp it out and to punish severely those people responsible. We mustn';t create an atmosphere in our community where all people who interact in a caring role with children feel that in some way they';re under suspicion because that will inhibit their natural display of emotions towards children. That was the point I was trying to make and I think that would be appalling if that were to occur in our community and I certainly don';t want to do anything to create that kind of situation. There are tens of thousands of Australians every day who care for young children and interact with them and those children need their natural spontaneous reactions, they need their affection, they need their cuddles on occasions when they fall over whether they';re parents or not and I don';t want any atmosphere about child abuse or whatever in our community to create a situation where people feel restrained in expressing their natural emotion and care as adults towards little children.
PRICE:
A week to Anzac Day. Do you think the French have got the message about the Somme?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I hope so. I';m surprised that the Ambassador took the position he did because my experience when I';ve been in France, and I';ve been there on several occasions to visit the graves on the Western Front, my experience has been that the French people will never forget what Australia did for them and I can remember when I called on the French President a couple of years ago he mentioned the Australian contribution right at the beginning of his discussion with me. So what appears to be occurring is out of step with my past experience with the French and I would hope that my past experience will be such that they don';t end up building this airport. The answer is for them not to build the airport. It';s not only Australian graves but it';s British and Canadian and I think also some New Zealanders who could be affected. It';s sacred country and it should be left undisturbed forever.
PRICE:
How emotional was it being at the Queen Mother';s funeral?
PRIME MINISTER:
It was extremely interesting. It was a great event, a great ceremony. It was not an occasion of, you know, in a sense great sadness. She lived to a very old age and a long life but I think it was a moment of historical importance given that she';d been around for all the great events that have influenced our experience and certainly the experiences of the United Kingdom over the last one hundred years when you think she was fourteen or fifteen years of age when World War I broke out. That gives you an idea of how long she';d been around. It was a great ceremony. The British do those sorts of things better than anybody. They';re very good at them.
PRICE:
Are you looking forward to working with Xanana Gusmao in East Timor?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I congratulate him. It';s a small country. It has an enormous challenge but they';re very lucky the East Timorese to have people of the quality of Gusmao and Jose Ramos Horta to assist them. I do look forward to working with him. He is a figure of great respect in that country and I';m very pleased that he had such a big win.
PRICE:
How';s John Brogden going?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think John';s got off to a very good start. I do. I believe he has got off to a very good start and if he continues then he';s going to present a very strong opposition to the Carr Government. It';s going to be very hard but the Carr Government will have been in power for eight years at the time of the next election and that is a time at which people start to ask themselves well maybe we should start looking at the opposition. It';s not to say they';re going to change the government but I do think John has got off to a very good start.
PRICE:
Prime Minister thanks for your time this morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[Ends]