Subjects: Cost of election promises; illegal immigration; war on terrorism; Telstra
CLARKE:
Mr Howard good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Philip. Good to be with you again.
CLARKE:
Yes, indeed. Look a number of things to get through. We';ve got some listeners questions, I';ll ask you some of those and some of the things that…
PRIME MINISTER:
Please do.
CLARKE:
…of course are on the agenda this morning as well. First down to costing. We';ve had the Charter of Budget Honesty and I think by and large it';s been accepted that there';s a budget surplus of $500 million, people are tailoring their…
PRIME MINISTER:
$500 million this year, a bit more next year and a little bit more again two years after that.
CLARKE:
So policies are being tailored towards that and we don';t have the massive all-out spend up we';ve had in previous years. As far as costing of policies is concerned you';re prepared to have your policies costed.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes in fact I';m writing off to the Department of Finance and the Department of Treasury this morning asking them to cost our policies. We';ve sent all of them to them and I';d ask Mr Beazley to do the same thing. It';s not good enough for him just to hide behind ACCESS Economics, let';s have our costings and his costings done with equal rigour by the two Departments. We';re happy to live by what the Departments produce….
CLARKE:
You';ll do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
…happy to do likewise and I';d like him to send them off today so that we get the results well before election day. It';s no use getting the results on Friday afternoon of next week on Christmas Eve so to speak. You';ve got no chance to debate it. So we';re sending off today and I would think Treasury and Finance will prepare very quickly the costings. We have not of course committed ourselves to nearly as much money and won';t in the forward years as Labor.
CLARKE:
Okay.
PRIME MINISTER:
We don';t have a lot more to offer in the rest of the campaign that';s going to be expensive. Labor, of course, has it';s launch today. I will wait and see what they offer in that area although it does appear as though they';re going to be offering a bit more of the same in the education area. Many of those programs they are talking about are already in one form or another up and running under the Coalition';s own plan. But I';ll wait and see.
CLARKE:
Alright. Can we just, can we go back to the boat people issue for a bit. The, there';s a poll out this morning, a newspoll, which shows that our attitudes as a country are hardening towards the boat people. That most people now would like to turn the boats back. You I understand have made an offer of $20 million to the Papua New Guinea government to assist in some of their defence spending to build a camp there. You';re negotiating with Fiji as well I understand? Have you concluded an agreement with them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Philip the $20 million to PNG is unrelated to asylum seekers. That is something that we have negotiated with PNG..
CLARKE:
It will assist with the asylum seekers in the housing of them won';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
No we';re helping, we offered to help with the reorganisation of the PNG defence force and that was a separate free-standing thing. We are providing PNG with financial help in relation to the asylum seekers but I just want to separate the two things out.
CLARKE:
Alright. You';re concluding an agreement with Fiji I understand. Is that done yet?
PRIME MINISTER:
We are discussing it with Fiji, yes.
CLARKE:
Has that concluded yet?
PRIME MINISTER:
To my knowledge it';s still under discussion.
CLARKE:
Alright. So we';ve got Nauru, PNG, Fiji, it can';t go on like this though can it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Philip, we are determined to send a signal that people can';t present themselves here and demand entry. They have to go through a proper refugee processing procedure. That message is beginning to get through. The good news in the last few weeks is that we have successfully returned, without injury, two groups of asylum seekers to Indonesian waters.
CLARKE:
But if it was working we wouldn';t be getting these boats would we?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don';t, it depends what you mean by working. You';ve got to remember that…
CLARKE:
…if the policy of saying look this is what we do, don';t come. They';re still coming aren';t they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Philip there are fewer people going into the pipeline and what you';re saying is because some are still coming the policy is a failure. You have to ask yourself how many would be coming in current circumstances if we had not taken the stand that we did at the end of August. I suggest that there would have been many more boats now headed towards Australia and we would have an absolutely unmanageable situation. You';ve got to remember that there';s a long pipeline and by taking the stand we have we have slowed the rate at which boats come to Australia and it is a very slow difficult task. But if we throw up our hands and say we';re going to stop doing this we';ll be saying to the world anybody can come and I promise you that would be a recipe for the shores of this country to be, to be I don';t want to use the word invaded it';s the wrong expression, but the shores of this nation to be thick with asylum seeker boats, thick with asylum seeker boats.
CLARKE:
Given that we';re involved in the Afghan war and I ask you this on the basis of Indochinese involvement too, we were a very generous country in the region and we should have been I think…
PRIME MINISTER:
The most generous in the world.
CLARKE:
Indeed, to resettle Indochinese refugees but given our involvement in the Vietnam war perhaps that was appropriate. Shouldn';t we be looking for an increase in the refugee quota to resettle more Afghan';s? Considering we';re going there, we';re going to have troops on the ground just like the Vietnam war?
PRIME MINISTER:
The circumstances are different though. The military objective in the Vietnam war was the retention of the territory of a country, namely the then South Vietnam, and the rendering of assistance to that country against invasion by another country, the then North Vietnam. In the case of Afghanistan we';re not trying to take over Afghanistan, and we';re not waging war on the people of Afghanistan, we are merely supporting a military operation which has the limited objective of finding and apprehending a group of terrorists and rendering a terrorist operation which is accommodated by the Taliban, rendering that terrorist operation ineffective. So they are very different situations. I think we have a responsibility in relation to the refugees on the ground. I do, and we have provided in the last few weeks, we have provided something in the order of $23 million more to the UNHCR.
CLARKE:
Should we take more though?
PRIME MINISTER:
A view…
CLARKE:
Should we take more?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t think the answer to this is to…
CLARKE:
And we take them in an orderly fashion I';m talking about. Can we take more in an orderly fashion?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t have any plans at present. I don';t think the…I mean the question of what your refugee program from time to time is going to be is an issue we consider on a regular basis. With a potential of 2.5 million refugees I';m not sure that us taking a few hundred more is going to solve the problem. What is more likely to solve the problem is to help both Afghanistan and Pakistan deal on the ground with the humanitarian problem and America to her credit is proposing to do that and we are already putting extra money towards the United Nations effort and that will be used principally in Pakistan.
CLARKE:
What do you make of this comment I see this morning by the Indonesian Navy';s Chief of Staff, an Admiral Sastrowirjono, who if he';s correctly reported says that Indonesia would do it';s best to help the boat people transit through Indonesia. He says that';s our obligation under International Law. I mean doesn';t this underline again that the Indonesian attitude towards the prosecution of boats, people smugglers is pathetic?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we would like to see them have a different attitude and we';ll continue to argue that they should have a different attitude and if we are successful in winning the election I expect to have an early talk with the President of Indonesia. I raised that with her at APEC to further discuss this issue. But nobody should imagine, that no matter what their politics are in Australia, that it';s easy to get an agreement with Indonesia on this issue because Indonesia';s priorities are not necessarily the same as Australia';s. They';re certainly not. I would be disappointed if I thought that were a universally held view within the Indonesian government and I know it';s not.
CLARKE:
It';s hard to know what';s universal in the Indonesian government I must say. By the way, Megawati';s husband';s here in Perth isn';t he at the moment for..hasn';t he suffered a heart attack as I understand it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I read of that. Yes I met him in Shanghai. So we have very good doctors. See our health system is very good despite getting…
CLARKE:
(inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
….regularly bagged by Opposition politicians during election campaigns both State and Federal, we really do have a very good health system which attracts a lot of people from around the region.
CLARKE:
Seven and a half to nine, you';re on 2GB, 873 with Philip Clarke, my guest this morning is the Prime Minister of Australia, Mr John Howard.
The SAS Mr Howard, just back on the war in Afghanistan, are off this week as we understand, of course we can';t document..(inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t want to go into the details of it.
CLARKE:
They';ll be there in place on the ground. I';ve been talking over the last few days about a lot of disquiet and I';m sure you have, you';ve got this as well, a lot of disquiet in Washington about the way the war is going and there are a lot of people in Washington who say look it';s lost focus, it';s not entirely clear what the project';s about any more, are you concerned about that?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I';m not. I always find that with an operation like this you have right at the beginning you have completely uncritical near 100 per cent support, there';s an unreal expectation that it';s all going to be over in a matter of days and then when that doesn';t occur people start raising questions and then they start making more serious allegations about things being off course and objectives not being clear. The objectives remain very clear. We were told by the President and the American military that it was not going to be over in a few days. It is difficult because you';re dealing with people who are very familiar with that terrain and they';re dealing with people also inside that country who are going to be very protective towards them. So we have to persevere, we do.
CLARKE:
What';s the minimum objective as you understand it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the objective is to eradicate the Bin Laden led Al Qaeda terrorist network, to apprehend or otherwise neutralise him and his followers and also to dismantle his terrorist operations to the extent that they exist in other parts of the world. It is limited to that very specific objective, but it';s a very important and not easily obtained objective. It is not to fight Afghanistan, or to fight Islam, or to occupy Afghanistan, we have no interest in that at all.
CLARKE:
You just get the sense this morning that over the last few days that with the comments by the Secretary of State in the United States too, that well they perhaps might not catch Osama Bin Laden, that it';s all getting a bit vague?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think always when you get into this phase of the operation that people are naturally making comments against the demand almost on an hourly basis from news interviewers that say when are you going to catch him? What happens next? It doesn';t work like that. It takes time.
CLARKE:
And we';re there for the duration?
PRIME MINISTER:
We are there for the duration of the mission we have at the moment. The mission we have at the moment is limited to the operation in Afghanistan and it';s limited by the objective in relation to the terrorist group. We haven';t given an open ended commitment to follow American military action in other parts of the world. If we were asked then that is something that we would separately consider but we are there for the duration in relation to this particular operation. I don';t believe that we';ll be asked to contribute any more forces. I don';t. This is a fairly significant contribution by Australia already and I don';t see the circumstances in which we will be asked to contribute more.
CLARKE:
Before the last Federal election a caller asked you, on this radio station actually, why do politicians get a better deal on superannuation than anybody else? After another term of your government they still get a better deal. Why';s that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we have made changes. A lot of changes.
CLARKE:
But they still get a better deal.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it depends a bit on whether you take into account the contributions that politicians make. We make bigger contributions than most people, I don';t think many of your listeners would make a contribution of 11 per cent out of their after tax salary would they?
CLARKE:
But why do they get access to it sooner than in other…
PRIME MINISTER:
Under a new law they';re not going to get that any longer for people elected after this coming election.
CLARKE:
But all of those people currently there do.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes well that was the basis on which they went in there and you don';t normally change those sorts of things retrospectively.
CLARKE:
As far as the scheme goes though the reforms that you';ve introduced, that';s as far as it';s going to go?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that';s a very big reform. A very big reform and it removes the major area of complaint that I used to get. I mean what people complained about was that somebody could be in Parliament for a few years, and go out at a relatively young age, say in his early 40s.
CLARKE:
Well people for instance, Bill O';Chee, …..
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes alright. Well under the new, under the new rule….
CLARKE:
I mean he';s 34 years old and $45,000 indexed, he';s got $45,000 for the rest of his life.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes but under the new rule he won';t have access to that until he';s much older and that would be like anybody else.
CLARKE:
The issue of retirement incomes and self-funded retirees it';s a critical one isn';t it? I mean Simon Crean I see says that they might reduce or abolish the 15 per cent superannuation surcharge?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they';re not going to, they say they might. When somebody in the middle of an election campaign says you might means you won';t. Because if ever you';re going to say you will it';s during an election campaign.
CLARKE:
What are you going to do for the self-funded retirees?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we did a lot in the last budget. We introduced an increase in the tax free threshold for self-funded retirees so that a single person up to $20,000 a year income pays no tax and a couple up to $32,500 a year income pay no tax. On top of that we introduced a further expansion of the seniors health card so that couple income up to $80,000 a year entitled them to it and we';ve begun a process of negotiating an extension of the fringe benefits available from States to pensioners so that those benefits would also attach to self-funded retirees. So we actually brought in a number of very important measures in that budget that were directed towards the complaints and concerns of self-funded retirees, many of which flow out of the fact that although low interest rates are very good if you';re paying off a home or running a business, low interest rates are not so good if you';re living on your investments during your retirement.
CLARKE:
True enough. Mr Howard the issue of Telstra which has bubbled along over the last day or so, are you going to sell Telstra? Yes or no?
PRIME MINISTER:
We';re not going to sell any more shares in Telstra unless and until things in the bush are up to scratch.
CLARKE:
So once they';ve improved yes?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the time to, you asked me that question, for you to ask me that question is when I';m satisfied, I';m not now so it';s an academic question.
CLARKE:
When might you be satisfied?
PRIME MINISTER:
I can';t say.
CLARKE:
The mystery of how we get to be satisfied is an intriguing one isn';t it? Some might say it';s an inquiry?
PRIME MINISTER:
No in the end the judgement will have to be made by the government and the government will, first of all, the government is going to implement all the recommendations out of the Besley inquiry and Besley went through it and said look you need to do all of these things and then when you';ve done all of these things it';s fair to say that facilities in country Australia will be on a par or roughly on a par with those in the city and we said righto we';ll implement all of these things and we';ve started to do that and when that';s done and I don';t know exactly when that will be we';ll obviously then say to bodies like the NFF, and our own Members of Parliament, and indeed any other bodies representing country Australia what do you think? How are you satisfied with the level of services? They might come back and say we';re not satisfied for the following reasons….
CLARKE:
So their agreement will be necessary?
PRIME MINISTER:
… let me put it this way, I can only say it in simple terms, we will need to be completely satisfied through the proper process of consultation that a sensible government undertakes, that facilities in the bush are up to scratch before we would contemplate any further sale.
CLARKE:
The budget figuring';s already done for the sale hasn';t it? It';s all sitting there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but it';s one of those things, in the early years you';ve got to remember there was a policy, there was a policy and once that figuring';s done, but the policy has been qualified by the requirement that we don';t sell further until things in the bush are fixed.
CLARKE:
Alright.
PRIME MINISTER:
And that is the, and in fact if you took those numbers out because of the cross effect of dividends in the forward estimates period it would have an impact on the budget of less than a $100 million over a period of four years so it really doesn';t matter to the budget whether those figures are in or out.
CLARKE:
Alright Mr Howard if you look at the polls you';re romping along at the moment. I mean you';re like Sunline in the Cox Plate last year not this year.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well not according to Mr Morgan';s poll.
CLARKE:
But if you look at…
PRIME MINISTER:
In Mr Morgan';s poll I';m behind.
CLARKE:
The two big tracking polls, Nielsen and Newspoll, you';re cruising along.
PRIME MINISTER:
It';s going to be hard for us because we';ve got a bad preference deal…
CLARKE:
You';re home and hosed aren';t you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No we';re not. We';ve got a very bad preference deal from the Democrats. The Democrats were meant to sit in the middle and not favour either of the major parties and by their preference strategy they clearly want a Labor government and not a Coalition government. Now that is their right but they can';t now say to their supporters that they are genuinely neutral. They';d have kept their political purity a bit more if they had had a split ticket. In other words, in every seat in Australia you have a Democrat how to vote card that says that if you want to give your second preference to the Liberal Party this is how you do it. If you want to give your second preference to the Labor Party this is how you do it. But they didn';t do that.
CLARKE:
For heaven';s sake Mr Howard, you';re not suggesting for one second are you the Democrats are acting like a political party are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Did I say that?
CLARKE:
Alright.
PRIME MINISTER:
They';re acting like a pro-Labor lobby group at the present time because they have selected a whole list of vulnerable Coalition seats and decided to preference Labor in eight of them. A whole string of marginal Coalition seats in Queensland, and the seats that they have offered us in return is two or three against about eight or nine. Now you don';t have to follow politics very closely to know what that means. They would prefer a Labor government and I';d say to Democrat voters listening to this prograo Democrat voters listening to this program, your party is not neutral, your party wants a Labor government and that';s something you ought to take into account when you vote because you don';t have to follow your party';s how to vote advice and if you don';t want a Labor government then your option is easy…give your second preference to the Liberals.
CLARKE:
Alright Mr Howard ten days to go. May the best man win.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you very much.
(ends)